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  1. superninjagod is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/08/2009 11:57am


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by IYRDC View Post
    In fact, it is a part of one's progress to do just that. It is part of the process called "shuhari"; the last component of which means to break free. It is a product of the insight gained through experience and training. Also, I did address why your earlier post was not valid. You made a statement that the type of technique we are discussing is worthless and a waste of time, and I followed by stating that you nor anyone else here is really qualified to make that distinction. Why? Because no one here has any direct experience with that type of technique in a live situation, no one has been in a real duel or melee with a katana, and therefore no one can verify whether or not the technique itself is worthless. That is simply the reality of the situation.

    Actually you could determine if something was applicable or not. You could conduct experiments using false weapons such as bokken, or demonstration swords. And from that experiment infer the validity of such a technique. The great thing about the modern age is that we now have access to literally hundreds of martial arts, where our ancestors had access to one or possibly two marital arts near their city or village. If the technique does not seem valid/permissible, there are many other martial arts techniques you could learn. That is the whole point of staying critical of what you are learning, its to save you time to increase your experience in the martial art.





    The problem is that you made an accusation that this technique doesn't work, or is a waste of time, but fail to substantiate the claim. What evidence do you have that it doesn't work? Have you looked at historical records documenting its use? Have you seen it fail yourself? Do you have evidence that the inclusion of this technique was to add some "flash" in order to attract more students? Do you have evidence that the technique has never actually been used? I am somewhat agnostic on this situation because we simply do not have any way testing the validity of this or any other sword technique in a live situation. It would be dangerous and unethical to experiment as such. In addition, there is the question about what the success-to-attempt ratio would need to be in order to qualify a technique as effective...which is another methodolical hurdle.

    See the paragraph above, to be perfectly honest, I have studies sword fighting, and I learned the reverse grip draw, Which after a strike or grapple the sword would immediately be turned upright. THe original poster for this had no experience and believed that you could hold a sword backwards and fight a huge ongoing fight with it (like in highlander or different video games). And that was what I was addressing. Not one stupid technique. But in releationship to sword fighting I have studies knife fighting much more extensively.

    In knife fighting you have the option of holding the knife upside down and people believe this is valid. And when it comes to fighting knife to knife it is not valid. I've seen entire video tapes on the subject (I saw a stupid video with Kelly Worden where he was spinning the knife backwards into reverse grip in the middle of the fight to finish it). This type of training is absurd, has no revelance and should not be taught or given time or energy too. In addition there was 3 ranges of knife fighting, long range, mid range and close range. 90% of the training in most JKD schools is within the mid range and close range quaters. However 90% of knife fights start and END in the long range. That is why the training is so poor in these martial arts. Luckily I intrisically understood this, or I was naturally good at long range and I ended up beating 3 of my weapons instructors in sparring.

    So my concern is that people will waste time with this reverse grip nonsense and not develope their appropriate skill level in other areas.

    There is nothing wrong with questioning the validity of a technique WHEN you have evidence to back up your claim. That is, of course, a way in which innovation occurs. However, you making the claim that something is or isn't valid is not sufficient in and of itself. For example:



    I disagree. If anything people should learn to back up their claims with evidence and not be under the impression that their opinion satisfies that requirement. you'll note that I included myself in the original statement, which is why my position is that no one can produce evidence sufficient enough to discredit the use of this technique. I understand that this is an internet forum and people are entitled to their opinions, but it takes more than an opinion to construct a successful argument.



    Here you fail to understand the point, which was that the person who is unarmed is at a disadvantage, and for all intents and purposes is probably going to lose. Muto dori has a LOW chance of success, but is still included because it can still improve the chance of survival. Therefore, techniques that still had a low chance of success or survivability were still included in the curriculum..my point had nothing to do with skill transfer or the quality of those techniques.

    Low chance of sucess is not the problem here, its the high likely hood of the situation, and what to do at a disadvantage which should be stressed in this situation



    I think you are overestimating just how prevalent this particular technique was, and how much time people actually spent practicing it. Again, Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu and Mugai Ryu, all of which produced some of the finest swordsmen in Japanese history included a variation of this technique in their curriculum. That should be sufficient evidence to suggest that it was not a waste of time, and did not detract from their overall training. The fact that at least three different schools included it, should further substantiate that claim.

    I don't think I am, I highly doubt that people would stuble upon their enemies without pulling out their swords and then get to close enough range to use this technique. ANd that this situation would happen no a consistent basis. What is more believable is that you would be unarmed, and that an armed attacker would attack you seems much more reasonable either in their time or now.

    Actually what I said was that the study of swordsmanship is no longer practical for "self-defense". Therefore, it would be misguided to try to take a class on swordsmanship with the intent of being able to defend oneself in the modern world. While this WAS the original intent of these arts, it is no longer the case. Therefore, those that do practice the art do so for reasons OTHER than self defense. Many enjoy the spiritual component, some enjoy feeling connected to tradition, and a plethera of other reasons. In some ways it is no different than someone learning to play a musical instrument or paint. Would you be making the same statement to a painter that they should quit so that they could develop their ground game and learn to strike? I've never been in a fight, and I'm smart enough not to put myself in situations in which a fight would occur. Most of the people I know have never been in a fight either. So for me it would be a waste of time to learn self defense since there is a very small probability that I would ever actually use it in real life, whereas I do get something valuable from studying the sword. I'm not suggesting that self-defense IS a waste of time, quite the contrary, only that I personally have no desire to spend my time practicing it.
    Regardless of what art or martial art you are practicing. All arts should be done with Honesty. Whether they paint or play an instrument. Or they Perform any marital art, they should perform the art as if they were going to use it, sell it or do it for real. That is where honesty comes in. I do not believe that a lot of martial arts are honest in how they teach techniques or traditions. And this is the purpose of forums like this.
  2. Yoj is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/08/2009 12:17pm


     Style: Aikijujutsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If the head of a koryu sword art says it's in the curriculum, it's in.
  3. IYRDC is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/08/2009 3:54pm


     Style: Yagyu Shinkage Ryu Heiho

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by superninjagod View Post
    Regardless of what art or martial art you are practicing. All arts should be done with Honesty. Whether they paint or play an instrument. Or they Perform any marital art, they should perform the art as if they were going to use it, sell it or do it for real. That is where honesty comes in. I do not believe that a lot of martial arts are honest in how they teach techniques or traditions. And this is the purpose of forums like this.
    Fair enough. Ultimately, I think we've reached an impasse, and will have to agree to disagree.

    On a side note, I'm sorry to hear that your experience with Bujinkan was negative, I've heard that quality instruction is very hit and miss since the organization has grown very rapidly. I have met a few very talented martial artists that the Bujinkan has produced, but I attribute a lot of that to the ferocity in how those particular individuals have approached their training.
  4. Plasma is online now
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    Posted On:
    12/08/2009 6:27pm

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: 柔術

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    Quote Originally Posted by superninjagod View Post
    \
    Regardless if it is in some defunct Kata somewhere, it is completely useless. Unless the oppenent is already down and you are just trying to "enure" that your defeated oppent is dead. There is no practical sword to sword or sword to any weapon in the world technique that would employ that grip. In fact the same can be said about reverse grip knife fighting. Paul Vunak, who is the only person in JKD who is worth a damn is quoted as saying "if you happen to pick up a knife in reverse grip from the ground, use it in reverse grip until you can turn it around and hold the knife they way it was meant to be held". God bless him for saying that, and the same applies to swords. When the sword maker was making the sword, he designed the handle and blade to be held upright. Not backwards.
    The reverse grip is considered the standard grip for many forms of European Dagger Combat. In Japanese Knife work both the forward and reverse grip are employed depending on the situation. In fact I teach both. The forward grip is more of a "dueling" grip where the reverse grip is more of an in tight grappling grip use for a more hidden deploying of the blade. Remember this for knife work, reverse grip sword work is and should be limited to a surprise/unorthodox draw or two.
  5. superninjagod is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/08/2009 11:35pm


     Style: BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by I crucified Jesus View Post
    The reverse grip is considered the standard grip for many forms of European Dagger Combat. In Japanese Knife work both the forward and reverse grip are employed depending on the situation. In fact I teach both. The forward grip is more of a "dueling" grip where the reverse grip is more of an in tight grappling grip use for a more hidden deploying of the blade. Remember this for knife work, reverse grip sword work is and should be limited to a surprise/unorthodox draw or two.
    Can't argue with that.

    My problem with reverse grip anythings are the Kelly Wordens of the world who produce a whole video about it and employ garbage techniques. Or the Steve Segals who try and spar knife to knife with reverse grip techniques. Most people training knife focus too hard on extreme close quater fighting or mid range fighting with a knife. They do not focus on Long distance fighting (the range where the oppenent is just in range of your knife, not your live hand or kicks punches or grapples). Paul Vunak Released a video called "Advanced Knife fighting Techniques". The funny thing was is that all the techniques were very simple. But it is considered the bible of knife fighting and I recommend everyone interested in knife to watch it.
  6. superninjagod is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/08/2009 11:37pm


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Yoj View Post
    If the head of a koryu sword art says it's in the curriculum, it's in.

    Thanks, that added absolutely nothing to an otherwise intellectual conversation. I hope you at least read what we were saying.
  7. superninjagod is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/08/2009 11:43pm


     Style: BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by IYRDC View Post
    Fair enough. Ultimately, I think we've reached an impasse, and will have to agree to disagree.

    On a side note, I'm sorry to hear that your experience with Bujinkan was negative, I've heard that quality instruction is very hit and miss since the organization has grown very rapidly. I have met a few very talented martial artists that the Bujinkan has produced, but I attribute a lot of that to the ferocity in how those particular individuals have approached their training.
    Doesn't matter if it Robert Bussey or Jayson Creasey (my instructor in booj), or Kevin Millis or even Steven K Hayes. They all pretty much suck. Some are horrible, but even the good ones (I rank Jayson Creasey as the best white Ninjutsu practitioner, he was a lethal combination of size, explosive speed, technical ability and experience." However after I got into JKD I had to replace all my skill set with the JKD skill set cause it was just so much more effective. Chen style Tai chi taught me alot more about body mechanics, intention and energy. Now I'm in BJJ and I finally have experience training techniques against a resisting opponent. With the exception of the exotic rope techniques and shuriken techniques, I have completely replaced everying I learned. I feel very strongly that if a boojer trained with the people I trained with, they would feel the same way.
  8. Yoj is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/09/2009 8:48am


     Style: Aikijujutsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by superninjagod View Post
    Thanks, that added absolutely nothing to an otherwise intellectual conversation. I hope you at least read what we were saying.

    The thread is about reverse grip techniques, in japanese sword arts, not about paul vunak vs steven segals techniques of knife fighting, so in fact it was entirely pertinent, you claimed you should be question everything and not do techniques that were obviously flawed, the point, within context of the thread, was that unless you are the head cheese or of similar status of a koryu, you aren't in a postion to question, because you don't know enough to question, and the syllabus for what you do is set.

    So yes, I did read what you'd posted, and within the context of the thread, replied.
  9. CountVelcro is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/09/2009 1:45pm

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     Style: Applied Fighting Methods

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've been training in the International Shinkendo Federation for the past 4 years, a federation lead by Toshishiro Obata. In all of the kata and kumite forms we do, we have NEVER used the reverse grip. As said earlier, the only time I've seen it is the noto or resheathing. But Obata sees it as impratical for both resheathing and cuttting because of lack of power, range and practicality. Often I demonstrate in class why its ineffectiveness against more typical strikes or options. So yeah, never used it and never used in that form of japanese swordsmanship.
  10. CountVelcro is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/09/2009 7:22pm

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     Style: Applied Fighting Methods

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Actually I forgot I have seen it several times in cutting demostrations. The only time I've seen it in traditional Japanese tameshigiri is in this video promoting his Jujutsu class. The site says he's also teaches Kenjutsu and Iaijutsu. I believe the form is Shiden'Issen. In the video, he uses the reverse resheath method. Around 4:30 he uses a reverse grip cut on a tatami mat. To be honest tho, the only time I see this is when the guy is trying to show off. The video is the first jujutsu video.

    http://www.martialartsoftucson.com/video.php

    Then the other occasion I've seen it is Korean Gumdo demostrations. Haven't checked about the Korean swordsmanship on this site, but I do know there's plenty of controversy about the style. But as for the cutting demostration itself, they use straw instead of tatami mat. I haven't tried cutting straw but supposedly even if you're a novice, it's like cutting through butter. Because of that, these cuts are pretty much bullshit. Can't be done on tatami or more difficult targets.

    YouTube- Gumdo Jipdan Cutting Demo 1
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