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  1. George-Jitsu is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    7/09/2009 4:54pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Rolling or repetition? Which to focus on more?

    I have been training primarily in BJJ for about 5 years now and I understand that in order to get good at BJJ, rolling has to be implemented regularly. I also know that some practitioners tend to focus a lot more on repetition rather than rolling. Other practitioners tend to focus much more on rolling than repetition. I think that there are advantages to both methods but which is more efficient? Drilling techniques against an unresisting opponent is important to learn the fundamentals, but does this kind of training eventually become unnessesary at a certain point? Does dead drilling become obsolete once the practitioner understands the basics of the technique? Should there be a point where the technique is trained exclusively against a resisting opponent? The arm lock drill is a perfect example. From either the guard or the mount the practitioner transitions back and forth armlocking his partner's arm while his partner sits there motionless. Once he understand the armlock from that position should he still practice it in that dead fashon or should he keep upping the resistance? I'm curious on what people think about this issue and would appreciate feedback from those more experienced than I.
  2. jnp is offline
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    Titanium laced beauty

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    Posted On:
    7/09/2009 8:33pm

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ, wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I am tempted to transfer this to the basic forum because the answer seems very obvious to me. Allow me to state my case.

    Individuals that can see a move and replicate it with no further instruction are extremely rare. Therefore, even if someone is extremely good at grappling, he or she will need some degree of practice to master any given move.

    What is the most efficient manner to learn a new move? Static drilling initially, followed by drilling with increasing resistance and culminating in repeated execution of the technique in an "alive" sparring session.

    Given the learning curve inherent in grappling, it would make most sense for beginners to stick with a 50/50 split between drilling and rolling. The percentage of time needed to drill should decrease as the grappler's skill level increases. You're never too good for static drilling in my opinion.

    The prosecution rests. Feel free to disagree.
  3. Zapruder is offline
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    Middleweight

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    Posted On:
    7/09/2009 8:52pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I just want to throw in the flow training, and it importance.

    Flow training is rolling and drilling in one neat little package. It allows for non static yet compliant drilling which is KEY to recognizing the move and being able to execute the move....well it seems my writing is on hiatus for the moment, I do hope that the above babble helps.

    I will be back later when my brain can talk to my hands and explain more, if anyone else wants to jump in that would be great too.
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  4. v1y is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/09/2009 10:13pm


     Style: Internet Warrior, BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Any new move needs to be drilled. If you can consistently hit it while rolling then i'd say you don't need to drill that specific move any more.

    It's really interesting because i've heard people say that at the highest level in jiujitsu there are no moves, just 'concepts' -- and i can't say i agree with this at all. Attempting anything that you haven't drilled before is usually a bad idea.
  5. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    7/11/2009 6:53am

    supporting member
     Style: stick,Taiji, mountainbike

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I agree that concepts are the key to advanced submission fighting. However, you have to know the basics so well that they become instinct to the point that you no longer even think about them before you do them. The only way to do that is by drilling. However, you will not be able to apply them to various situations until you have used them in live sparring enough to allow your mind to move to these submissions without having seen the exact set up before.

    Lots of people have different ways of doing that. Most places have you drill your butt off when you start, and roll as often as possible. Then start tapering it to where you are rolling more than you drill. It is always necessary to keep drilling the basics and going back to it.
  6. datdamnmachine is offline
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    Jiu Jitsu - Sometimes passing just isn't an option.

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    Posted On:
    7/11/2009 4:52pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Unauthorized Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ^^^ What all these guys said...plus:

    Both. Plain and simple, both. Someone someone told me is that for each person, there is a different number for the amount of repetitions you need to do something before you get it. It may be 10 for you, may be 100 for me, may be 10,000 for someone else. It's one of the reasons a lot of people finally "get" a move because they have finally hit their magic number (and other stuff as well, won't go deep into that however). Me, I look at it like this. You require a certain number of static repetitions so have the fundamentals of a technique. You require a certain number of progressively resistant drills to be able to start applying the technique. You require a certain number of successful executions of said technique in live sparring in order for you to be comfortable enough to call that technique your own.

    Me, I'm an armbar person and I move my hips like my immortal soul depends on it. When I get the opportunity to drill shrimps and armbars, I try to get as much out if them as I possibly can. When I drill it, I try to drill it to absolute perfection. This is because these are moves that I rely on.

    Think of it like this; you have to sharpen the blade before you go into battle with it. You also have to continue to sharpen the blade if you want to continue being successful with the sword. Basically what that means is that I use drills as a means of sharping my techniques so that when I spar, they are the best they can be.

    Drilling can also help you troubleshoot problems with a technique. You will find yourself seeing problems in a move while drilling it that you may not notice in the head of training/compitition...unless you are video recording yourself and reviewing the tape (which I recommend as well). Then, trying the move in sparring lets you get a feeling for how much work you need on that move and allows you to compare if you just aren't ready to pull that move off in live rolling or if something else is causing the technique to fail.

    As mentioned previously by others and myself above, it should be drilling, progressive resistance, situational sparring to reinforce, practical application in free sparring. You will get the most bang for your buck with moves that are instinctive as well as moves you aren't familiar with.
  7. STFUjiujitsu is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/15/2009 10:49am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: BJJ/Kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    repetition rolling is my answer. Like instead of free rolling and going to whatever the transition takes you, Have a set goal. I'm going to start in butterfly guard and you pass. I'm going to sweep. If you sweep or pass then you start over. You can go as far to isolate it to a specific sweep. but live resistance depending on how well you know whatever position or sweep your trying to work on. That's my favorite way to drill.
  8. KiwiPhil889 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/20/2009 10:51pm


     Style: Kickboxin & Shootfightin

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You will always need to do both. A begginner can be shown an xxxxx (fill in your technique) and apply said technique,but we all know that if that same technique is applied by a BB it will feel completely different. Why?? because the yrs of free rolling has allowed their technique to develope via drilling.

    For example. Ppl remember the first time they successfully pulled off an Arm Bar in free rolling. Is that the end of it?? No,not at all,they (me) then spend more time working out those details that make it so much tighter,quicker smoother.This will prolly happen in incremental stages,as each extra detail is drilled and then successfully applied in rolling,or not applied and so "back to the drawing board". Yes some of that is free rolling to see what werks,but there is also the drilling element.

    I talk alot to my traing partners when drilling,will ask them to chill for a sec while i experiment with different positions for my feet,different angles,all the detail that would have been too much to learn straight up.

    I'll never stop drilling,it helps with the small details that can be just too tough to werk on when rolling.
  9. jnp is offline
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    Titanium laced beauty

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    Posted On:
    7/20/2009 11:17pm

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ, wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
  10. Ungjaevel is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/20/2009 11:42pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ & Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I agree with jnp, which I believe lies pretty close to what SBG uses very explicitly (among others). I find that the best method of learning for me is one that employs a middle ground between dead reps and sparring; it's helpful to have a middle stage that is based around scenarios where I can specifically implement a new move against gradual resistance, which culminates in free sparring.
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