WC/JKD vertical Punch: Striking Surface

[TenTigers]

JP-if you read mosts of these posts, it seems that most people do NOT know how to make a proper fist. Yeah, you are right. It SHOULD be the first thing a student is taught, but I can't tell you how many people-including people with years of "experience," do NOT know how to make a proper fist.
If the thread does not apply to you, simply go on to the next thread.
That's what I do. I scan to weed out the hippies, tree huggers, chi-ballers, larpers, noobs, and know it alls.
yeah, I know. It doesn't leave much, does it?

[JP]

JP-if you read mosts of these posts, it seems that most people do NOT know how to make a proper fist. Yeah, you are right. It SHOULD be the first thing a student is taught, but I can't tell you how many people-including people with years of "experience," do NOT know how to make a proper fist.
If the thread does not apply to you, simply go on to the next thread.
That's what I do. I scan to weed out the hippies, tree huggers, chi-ballers, larpers, noobs, and know it alls.
yeah, I know. It doesn't leave much, does it?

Yeah I know. I'm really just spouting off at the mouth.

But it seems like getting all touchy feely about this type of **** isn't why these people are posting here.

This is the most bullshit-free martial arts site on the web, so if they're posting here, I figure they want their advice sans bullshit.

So maybe a sharp smack in the mouth, posting-wise, will knock em onto the right track.

Or maybe I just get off on being a cranky dick...

Jury's still out on that last.

[8bit]

This is the most bullshit-free martial arts site on the web, so if they're posting here, I figure they want their advice sans bullshit.

So the orthopedic surgeon specialists' opinions Kagan was implying he has access to would be of primary importance to this thread.

[JP]

So the orthopedic surgeon specialists' opinions Kagan was implying he has access to would be of primary importance to this thread.

Tom was pointing out that not even orthopedic surgeons could agree on exactly how to punch. Those opinions would neither refute nor support the principles of wing-chun punching styles.

However, despite numerous opportunity for kung fu to turn out competent ring fighters, the fact that few come from a wing chun background is certainly telling. But I believe this has more to do with ineffective power generation than what your fist looks like when you clock somebody.

For the record, when I was fighting my coach taught us a vertical punch. It worked fine.

Like I said earlier in my rant, your fist is the least important part of an effective punch. Just close your fucking hand and keep your wrist straight. Learning how to hit hard, effectively and with timing is way, way harder. But for some reason the more elusive topic of discussion.

I think because it's infinitely simpler a concept and harder to navel-gaze about.

Which means no long, drawn out scholarly discussions on an activity that is anything but scholarly.

[8bit]

Tom was pointing out that not even orthopedic surgeons could agree on exactly how to punch. Those opinions would neither refute nor support the principles of wing-chun punching styles.

However, despite numerous opportunity for kung fu to turn out competent ring fighters, the fact that few come from a wing chun background is certainly telling. But I believe this has more to do with ineffective power generation than what your fist looks like when you clock somebody.

For the record, when I was fighting my coach taught us a vertical punch. It worked fine.

Like I said earlier in my rant, your fist is the least important part of an effective punch. Just close your fucking hand and keep your wrist straight. Learning how to hit hard, effectively and with timing is way, way harder. But for some reason the more elusive topic of discussion.

I think because it's infinitely simpler a concept and harder to navel-gaze about.

Which means no long, drawn out scholarly discussions on an activity that is anything but scholarly.

You are right about power, effectiveness, and timing being harder to discuss directly. Which, as you said, is the reason it is not often a topic of long discussion online.

I actually would like to know which surgeons he was talking about, and what their precise opinions were. It may not be conclusive, but it would be more valuable information to ponder on. Even to know, conclusively, that they did in fact disagree is worth something - because even that has not been confirmed.

Kudos on having a functional vertical fist, but training is not something that can be done online. Until then, all discussions will be primarily text-based.

[JP]

You are right about power, effectiveness, and timing being harder to discuss directly. Which, as you said, is the reason it is not often a topic of long discussion online.

That's not what I said. I said it was a more elusive topic of discussion because it's really simple.

It either works, and you hurt people when you hit them, or it doesn't and then they hurt you.

And from all the systems that manage to hit with power, the principles are basically the same. So no opportunity to get all emotional and complicated and start posting pictures of dihedral wings and ****.

Kudos on having a functional vertical fist, but training is not something that can be done online. Until then, all discussions will be primarily text-based.

I wasn't looking for kudos.

I was pointing out that having a vertical fist is probably not the reason why most chun sucks.

I do not do the chun. You guys don't have the patent on the vertical fist.

On a separate note, that statement there in bold has got to be one of the most puerile I've ever read on this site. Congratulations.

Not to mention hilarious coming from a guy who's chosen style gets defended more vehemently, and possibly effectively, with words that with actual punching.

[Tom Kagan]

in the vertical punch, the ulnar and radial bones (sp?) are aligned directly behind the three knuckles. If you hold your vertical fist out and then lean straight into a wall, you will find that the bottom three knuckles all make contact.

I can hold my vertical fist out and make contact with either the first two knuckles or the middles two. I can do the same with a horizontal fist.

To turn the fist over requires a bending of the wrist, that is, unless you only turn it 3/4.

You need to add rotation at the shoulder, not the wrist, to turn it over completely without bending your wrist.

As far as simply tightening the fist-
make a fist. Squeeze it tight. If you are also squeezing the pinky and ring fingers tight, you notice that you pull those bones out of alignment. The lasttwo metacarpals are smaller than the others, and "float." (you can see that when you press down on them) tightening even more, and the tendons on the side of yur wrist pull the fist itself out of alignment

This only happens on me if I also loosen my index and middle fingers. Otherwise, it is aligned as you say by tightening them all.

You can punch with the fist held losely, as long as the bones are in alignment, and still generate power. You can hold your hand almost open in an L shape, and hit your palm to try this. When you get this down, you can even hold an egg in your hand and so long as the alignment is correct, you can punch through a board, or a pad, or hit your friends without breaking the egg. Try it. Maybe not on your Mom's carpet...

Both bones and eggs are are strong in compression but not tension, so I'd have to speculate it isn't very hard to figure this out. Regardless, I think you'll agree that punching a moving target which is trying to hit you back isn't the same thing as a parlor trick. I doubt you advocate a half open hand when trying to put some knockout power into your opponent.

The way I am visualizing this statement, that would (with two players of the same height and in similar stances) only leave straight forward punches and downward punches as valid CMA vertical punches. Why would you punch with the bottom knuckles if you were punching downward? Am I missing something?

After rereading your post, I made the wrong assumption that when you made your distinction, you were referring to horizontal versus vertical instead of first two or middle two lines. And, I was too vague in my response. My point was actually about the power line through the hand.

When it comes down to it, people break their hands when punching because the hand is a delicate structure. While bone itself can take a very large load in compression, in tension it is rather weak. Since there are at least twenty seven bones in a hand, that's a lot of room for a slight little shearing action to break any of the bones in the hand.

Make a tight fist and punch in between the middle two or top two fingers, and the rest is luck. :smile:

So the orthopedic surgeon specialists' opinions Kagan was implying he has access to would be of primary importance to this thread.

You misunderstand. While there are countless studies of treatment, my point was that there is a dearth of hard information on the subject prevention and a plethora of speculation, educated guesses, and anecdotes. Everyone always talks about metacarpal fractures but seem to ignore the fact that a great deal of hand injuries occur to the thumb and wrist.

[8bit]

Thanks for the clarification.

[Dr._Tzun_Tzu]

to add to what Tom said,

A vertical fist opens into a pak or jum sau, or a wu coming forward. or it can roll or into a bong sau, etc..so it is a neutral starting point for all WT defense movements. Rotating a horizontal punch negates this ability.

A fist is really just for inside a glove in sparring and bag work, but the surface of the hit is still important as it must translate to the other strikes you will do. In both WT and Latosa Escrima, we hit with the bottom three finger surfaces. There is a WT inch punch that starts with the 2 knuckle surface and ends with the three.

Pinky injuries are very rare in WT. I believe pinky injury's come from using the two knuckle punch but missing and connecting with the little finger on a bad angle.

[Permalost]

You are completely incorrect when you say that the inch punch is not a fighting technique. Unless, of course, you are referring to the "famous Bruce Lee's one inch punch" as seen in his demonstration clips.

I was talking about the demo one where you touch with your fingertips and snap the wrist and body into the strike. Obviously, there is an advantage to being able to generate power in a short distance, but I've seen people use the Bruce Lee 1 inch punch training as an end rather than an example of one application of short power that could be developed in a more generalized fight oriented way.