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  1. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    8/07/2009 2:44am

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Tom Kagan summed things up as I understand them. I've been working top two knuckle and bottom three knuckle punches on the bag for years now and now can hit with either set confidently. They both work, but you have to line up the wrist correctly. Both should also keep the elbow in, which is more intuitive with the vertical punch but is still possible and viable with the palm down.
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    8/07/2009 2:51am

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by wingchunx2z View Post
    I'f I'm allowed I will attempt to suggest a possible answer for you since no one else has done so so far?

    It has to do with generating one inch power. Every movmetn of wing chun in the mid range level should be relaxed until the moment of impact. At the exact moment you impact you tense and go from 0 to 100% and the explosive motion creates the one inch power. The motion of the centerline punch pops the wrist at the very last second and the three knuckles come forward as the fist goes up.

    In theory a proper centerline punch should not even be clenched until this last second ebfore impact and it should always have the fist facing forwards where it intends to go usually chambered at the elbow of your other arm. The punch comes forward with the fist facing forwards relaxed until teh last moment and then when you pop your wrist adn tense the 3 knuckles are the surface that transfers the energy.

    Becasue you're not using your whole body to punch like a boxer the likelihood of breaking your bottom knuckles is far less than a straight boxing punch with teh hips behind it due to less force impacting.

    This is as it has been taught to me by my sifu and a possible idea to answer your question.
    You know that the one inch punch isn't a fighting technique, right? It's a martial arts trick designed to demonstrate principles of power generation, not actually designed to hit a person like that combatively. Also, you should be using your whole body as I understand it- it just doesn't move very far. It should involve body rotation and dropping. It's a study of some of the elements of punching. Do you think Bruce Lee would one inch punch someone if he wanted to hurt them? He'd probably do a "boxing punch" that may hit harder due to his study of short range power generating.

    Note- I base most of this on the old DeMile "book" about Bruce Lee's one inch punch that I bought when I was like 17 and proceeded to test out.
  3. beardedtaco is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/07/2009 3:56am


     Style: BJJ/MT/MMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My main concern about using vertical punches is mainly a defensive one. When using vertical punches, it is very hard to use your shoulder to tuck your chin/head for protection.
  4. TenTigers is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/07/2009 9:53am


     Style: Hung Kuen, Jook Lum SPM

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    Quote Originally Posted by beardedtaco View Post
    My main concern about using vertical punches is mainly a defensive one. When using vertical punches, it is very hard to use your shoulder to tuck your chin/head for protection.
    if you are using a wck platform, you are correct. The body is facing square so your hands are equidistant. You ca use the vertical punch from a western boxer's stance. Get in your stance, extend your fist as you would with your jab,tuck your chin as usual. Now, rotate your fist. Your arm rotates from the elbow down, and should not affect your shoulder.
    Of course, that is unless you are so stiff that you cannot turn your arm without hunching your shoulders. I had a student that (possibbly because he was in his late fifties and was a "bb" at Villari's Kempo...) for the life of me, I could not teach him the bong-sao. Everytime he rotated his arm, he would hunch his shoulder.
    In Gung-Fu, you learn to isolate the body, and its joints. Practicing shoulder rolling-rotating of the scapula will help with this.
  5. TenTigers is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/07/2009 10:07am


     Style: Hung Kuen, Jook Lum SPM

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    Quote Originally Posted by CodosDePiedra View Post
    You know that the one inch punch isn't a fighting technique, right? It's a martial arts trick designed to demonstrate principles of power generation, not actually designed to hit a person like that combatively. Also, you should be using your whole body as I understand it- it just doesn't move very far. It should involve body rotation and dropping. It's a study of some of the elements of punching. Do you think Bruce Lee would one inch punch someone if he wanted to hurt them? He'd probably do a "boxing punch" that may hit harder due to his study of short range power generating.

    Note- I base most of this on the old DeMile "book" about Bruce Lee's one inch punch that I bought when I was like 17 and proceeded to test out.
    You are completely incorrect when you say that the inch punch is not a fighting technique. Unless, of course, you are referring to the "famous Bruce Lee's one inch punch" as seen in his demonstration clips.

    Inch power, or short power is used quite often. It is used in a shocking short hook punch, it is used in a bicep pop, when in the clinch to snap your opponent's head into your strike. It is used when your hand is in close proximity to its target, rather than drawing it back and losing that advantage. In SPM, once the hand strikes, it stays in rather than retracting all the way back. There, it continues to strike with short power and minimum recoil, so it is still in there to launch more strikes, and control the opponent. The strikes need to come from wherever the hand is at that time-and the body needs to generate the power with relaxed coiling ging.
    No, short power isn't the same as knock-out power-although some strikes will hit very hard and are indeed capable of KO. What the short power strike WILL do is set you up for the follow ups.
    "If I hit you once, I will hit you twice" Styles that utilize short power, in most cases have the strategy of constant pressure, barrages without let-up until the attacker is downed. It is not a one-shot deal.
    The inch punch is indeed more of a demo. The majority of short strikes come from more like 8-12 inches. When you look at it like that, you see that you probably are using short power more often than you realize.
  6. MMAMickey is offline
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    POWERRR!

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    Posted On:
    8/07/2009 12:12pm

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     Style: Boxing.MMA

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    Quote Originally Posted by wingchunx2z View Post
    It has to do with generating one inch power.
    revealing personal truths?
  7. johnevans is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/07/2009 12:15pm


     Style: Bas Rutten tapes

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    Wing Chun practitioners,

    In your experience with full-speed, full-contact sparring, have you found vertical punches and one-inch punching power to be useful? I remember the WC Fight Quest episode, and WC sparring ended up looking like boxing to me, just with more focus on repeated quick jabs. I didn't really see and one-inch punches used.
  8. wingchunx2z is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/07/2009 3:30pm


     Style: Wing Chun

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnevans View Post
    Wing Chun practitioners,

    In your experience with full-speed, full-contact sparring, have you found vertical punches and one-inch punching power to be useful? I remember the WC Fight Quest episode, and WC sparring ended up looking like boxing to me, just with more focus on repeated quick jabs. I didn't really see and one-inch punches used.
    One inch power is supoposed to be in all strikes, but I'll freely admit I rarely ever use it simply becasue it requires very precise timing to jing at the contact point. I'm not skilled enough to apply it correctly so most of my sparring has fast strikes but with no jing as of yet.

    The exception to this is the clinch. I have used one inch punching in MMA sparring, Muay Thai clinch work, and a few times in sparring with my sparrign buddy from Wing Chun. The onyl reason I can do thsi though, is because the clinch is slow enough for you tos top adn think about what you wanna do for a second so I had time to place my fist down and jing on the center of the chest.

    Anyway in general though I would you should see it everywhere but it's a very difficult thing to get to work exactly right and I'm not good enough to do it without thinking about it yet.
  9. BoonDog is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/07/2009 3:36pm

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     Style: running scared

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    Quote Originally Posted by wingchunx2z View Post
    Blah blah, blah.
    The question was directed to those with experience in full contact, full speed sparring . You are not qualified for that yet. Learn when to post and when to shut up
  10. JP is offline
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    It's all about the clinch. The clinch, I said.

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    Posted On:
    8/07/2009 3:39pm

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     Style: SAMBO, mma, jiujitsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan View Post
    IMO, whether your hand gets hurt when throwing a fist is mostly a function of how tight you make the fist. You can align the bones in the hand to create a "power line" with the first two knuckles or with the middle two.
    The following is not directed personally at you, Tom. I bolded that part of you post because you mentioned injury and yours was one of the few posts in this thread I bothered to read.

    What the hell is it with all the constant navel gazing that goes on about fighting? And I hate to single these folks out, but mostly I hear it from people that don't fight, don't compete and/or don't spar hard. And these people often tend to be from the sects of martial arts that don't spar frequently with intent and hard contact and certainly don't compete.

    Look, of course there's a right and a wrong way to make a fist. Of course which striking surface of the hand you use makes a difference in the fist's stability and resistance to impact. But that's really easy to teach. It's almost the first thing that gets covered in any decent martial art that is gonna teach you to punch.

    So why is this still such a focus of conversation and debate?

    I'm all one for the free and equal exchange of ideas, but jesus christ does it really need to be re-hashed like this over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again?

    It's really simple.

    You make a good fist, and you punch somebody in the face or head and you can hurt your hand.

    But YOU'RE IN A FUCKING FIGHT!!! If the biggest question on your mind is how and what kind of fist you are using, trust me you are focusing on entirely the wrong puzzle here.

    Professional punchers hurt their hands all the time. Punches in professional ring fights often don't land perfectly on the two biggest knuckles, sometimes they don't even get rotated all the way over, and sometimes, GASP, people just hit each other and don't worry about this **** so much.

    Your fist is the last part of your punch you should be focused on.

    The last.
    Last edited by JP; 8/07/2009 3:43pm at . Reason: Editted for various mistakes in spelling and grammar
    Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
    and remember what peace there may be in silence.
    As far as possible, without surrender,
    be on good terms with all persons.
    Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
    and listen to others,
    even to the dull and ignorant;
    they too have their story.

    -excerpt of the poem called "Desiderata," by Max Ehrman, 1927.
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