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  1. Crushing Step is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/02/2009 7:32pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    WC/JKD vertical Punch: Striking Surface

    I have a curiosity. Not having trained in either the chun or JKD, I have seen videos and read books on both. The most talked about technique seems to be some sort of magic that the arm is somehow longer with a vertical punch, giving you better reach. The most common criticism I've seen, thanks to the search function, seems to be the "arm punching".

    So I'm not looking to cover arm length, weight behind the punch, or chain punching. I am really looking to see why the striking surface is the bottom three knuckles, and am looking specifically for real world experience in using these as a striking surface.

    In mantis we have a vertical punch that uses the two large knuckles to strike with, and my initial reaction to hitting anything with the small knuckles is fairly negative. Methinks the knuckles are smaller and you would hurt yourself, but I do invite some discussion...
  2. 8bit is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/02/2009 7:52pm


     Style: wing chun

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Bottom knuckle punching leads to broken knuckles. Impacting with the top knuckles is correct.
  3. KarelinLifter is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/05/2009 7:48pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Wrestling, Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I read a book about JKD where it said you should aim the punch with your ring finger knuckle(so the line of "power" insn't disprupted something like that) and in doing so the punch wil land with the first three knuckles
  4. Kubili is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/06/2009 12:04pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Searching

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You could hit a heavy bag and see the difference.

    I prefer a boxing style punch it fits with what I was taught over the years. I've never tried using a vertical punch in sparring so I don't know if there is any real advantage.

    I'm sure people will explain that WC punch works better with proper body alignment.
  5. Crushing Step is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/06/2009 12:45pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yep, have hit a heavy bag with the bottom three knuckles and it just feels wrong...

    I am actually surprised no chunners gave a decent reason for the bottom three knuckled punch. Curiosity satisfied as far as I'm concerned.
  6. MMAMickey is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/06/2009 2:18pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Boxing.MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    wing chun is ****.. ignore their nun-taught lies! they aim only to corrupt you and poison your mind!.. and break your hand
  7. wingchunx2z is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/06/2009 8:55pm


     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mantis_Fist View Post
    I have a curiosity. Not having trained in either the chun or JKD, I have seen videos and read books on both. The most talked about technique seems to be some sort of magic that the arm is somehow longer with a vertical punch, giving you better reach. The most common criticism I've seen, thanks to the search function, seems to be the "arm punching".

    So I'm not looking to cover arm length, weight behind the punch, or chain punching. I am really looking to see why the striking surface is the bottom three knuckles, and am looking specifically for real world experience in using these as a striking surface.

    In mantis we have a vertical punch that uses the two large knuckles to strike with, and my initial reaction to hitting anything with the small knuckles is fairly negative. Methinks the knuckles are smaller and you would hurt yourself, but I do invite some discussion...
    I'f I'm allowed I will attempt to suggest a possible answer for you since no one else has done so so far?

    It has to do with generating one inch power. Every movmetn of wing chun in the mid range level should be relaxed until the moment of impact. At the exact moment you impact you tense and go from 0 to 100% and the explosive motion creates the one inch power. The motion of the centerline punch pops the wrist at the very last second and the three knuckles come forward as the fist goes up.

    In theory a proper centerline punch should not even be clenched until this last second ebfore impact and it should always have the fist facing forwards where it intends to go usually chambered at the elbow of your other arm. The punch comes forward with the fist facing forwards relaxed until teh last moment and then when you pop your wrist adn tense the 3 knuckles are the surface that transfers the energy.

    Becasue you're not using your whole body to punch like a boxer the likelihood of breaking your bottom knuckles is far less than a straight boxing punch with teh hips behind it due to less force impacting.

    This is as it has been taught to me by my sifu and a possible idea to answer your question.
  8. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    8/06/2009 9:36pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    wingchunx2z, let me get this straight:

    Your sifu says the vertical fist is okay because he's teaching you to punch like a *****?


    Quote Originally Posted by 8bit View Post
    Bottom knuckle punching leads to broken knuckles. Impacting with the top knuckles is correct.
    Not even orthopedic surgeons who specialize in dealing with hand injuries of combat sport participants can agree. So, why are you presenting your "it's common sense" opinion as fact?


    The vertical fist is used to punch below the head. When punching to the head, you are supposed to torque your forearm over like any "boxer". However, if you are properly taught "CMA style", you will not be throwing a closed hand to the head, anyway. Thus, there is no "horizontal fist", but an open palm.

    People focus on the vertical fist orientation, but the reality is they should be concentrating on elbow alignment. An in close punch without torquing your forearm over as you would with a full extension arm strike allows better recovery from the punch to protect your flanks.

    IMO, whether your hand gets hurt when throwing a fist is mostly a function of how tight you make the fist. You can align the bones in the hand to create a "power line" with the first two knuckles or with the middle two.
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
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  9. TenTigers is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/07/2009 12:14am


     Style: Hung Kuen, Jook Lum SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    in the vertical punch, the ulnar and radial bones (sp?) are aligned directly behind the three knuckles. If you hold your vertical fist out and then lean straight into a wall, you will find that the bottom three knuckles all make contact. To turn the fist over requires a bending of the wrist, that is, unless you only turn it 3/4. In Hung Kuen, we don't punch with the fist completely flat-unless you want to balance teacups or something pretty. This is the same reason why our short hook-similar to a western boxer's hook, we hold the fist vertical. In this way, we hit with the entire fist. With the fist held horizontally, and unwrapped, and taped, withoutglove..if you land short and only the last two knuckles hit your opponent's jaw, or head, you may suffer a very common fracture of the metacarpals-"Boxer's Break."
    As far as simply tightening the fist-
    make a fist. Squeeze it tight. If you are also squeezing the pinky and ring fingers tight, you notice that you pull those bones out of alignment. The lasttwo metacarpals are smaller than the others, and "float." (you can see that when you press down on them) tightening even more, and the tendons on the side of yur wrist pull the fist itself out of alignment-thus-andother Boxr's Break.
    BUT-make youfist, and tighten the index and middle fingers. Youwill notice that the fist is flat straight across the line of the knuckles, and in alignment.
    The structure must be aligned.
    Here's another neat little thing.
    You can punch with the fist held losely, as long as the bones are in alignment, and still generate power. You can hold your hand almost open in an L shape, and hit your palm to try this. When you get this down, you can even hold an egg in your hand and so long as the alignment is correct, you can punch through a board, or a pad, or hit your friends without breaking the egg. Try it. Maybe not on your Mom's carpet...
  10. 8bit is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/07/2009 12:47am


     Style: wing chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan View Post

    Not even orthopedic surgeons who specialize in dealing with hand injuries of combat sport participants can agree. So, why are you presenting your "it's common sense" opinion as fact?
    Its what I was taught and have had another WC sifu confirm it. Where are the conflicting orthopedic surgeons' opinions you speak of?

    The vertical fist is used to punch below the head. When punching to the head, you are supposed to torque your forearm over like any "boxer". However, if you are properly taught "CMA style", you will not be throwing a closed hand to the head, anyway. Thus, there is no "horizontal fist", but an open palm.
    The way I am visualizing this statement, that would (with two players of the same height and in similar stances) only leave straight forward punches and downward punches as valid CMA vertical punches. Why would you punch with the bottom knuckles if you were punching downward? Am I missing something?
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