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  1. ReillyHall is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/29/2009 3:13pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Freestyle

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Traditional Martial Arts and Guard Position

    I apologize if this belongs in a different thread.

    Hey people,

    In many TMA, you bring your opposite fist back to the hip. Push-and-pull and all that.

    Quick question for you: How can you incorporate TMA techniques with a guard position more similar to Muay Thai/boxing?

    I don't want to leave my face open to attack, but most TMA schools have a hand down. How do I train in a club without despising my form?
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  2. 1point2 is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/29/2009 3:47pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 剛 and 柔

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This will almost certainly get moved to the Basic technique forum.

    Pulling a fist to your armpit is a ridiculous perversion of the original Okinawan concept of hikite, which was just the idea of grabbing your opponent while you hit them. Choki Motobu lamented the "chambering" hand position of his contemporaries way back in the 1920's when he wrote his Ryukyu Kempo: Kumite.

    The book is here
    Amazon.com: Okinawan Kempo (9780920129173): Choki Motobu: Books
    But I read Patrick McCarthy's translation with commentary, called Karate-Jutsu: My Art:
    http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=399
    Can't find it on Amazon; WTF?

    If you want to train a boxing guard with hikite, wear MMA gloves and work on grabbing and pulling/jerking your partner's sleeve, wrist, head or body (underhooks, collar ties, and overhooks work well) while you punch or elbow them.

    If you want to train a correct hand guard while at a karate/TKD school, well, hold your hands up correctly during sparring....but most likely you're screwed and should just cross-train boxing or Muay Thai.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
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  3. 8bit is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/29/2009 4:11pm


     Style: wing chun

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ReillyHall View Post
    I apologize if this belongs in a different thread.

    Hey people,

    In many TMA, you bring your opposite fist back to the hip. Push-and-pull and all that.

    Quick question for you: How can you incorporate TMA techniques with a guard position more similar to Muay Thai/boxing?

    I don't want to leave my face open to attack, but most TMA schools have a hand down. How do I train in a club without despising my form?

    If you are talking about the counterbalancing push pull aspect to create more body torque, you may want to experiment with a bow and arrow position. It produces a similar effect and allows one to keep the hands higher. In my experience, it is easier to get more force out of this posture than from bringing the rear elbow to chambered position.

      #3
  4. maofas is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/11/2009 9:43pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kenkojuku Karate, Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've never been taught anything but [what you would consider to be] a basic put-up-yer-dukes boxing guard that (de?)evolved naturally over time, and I have a fairly traditional background. Except for when I'm trying to bait shots down the center, I don't think my stance looks anything like a MT stance though.


    I don't know about hands down being a common practice in TMA. TKD yes, but that's due to their competition ruleset, 51+% of all TMA though? I'm not sure about that.
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  5. honest_truth is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/11/2009 10:20pm


     Style: Takedowns and batons

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    Quote Originally Posted by maofas View Post
    I've never been taught anything but [what you would consider to be] a basic put-up-yer-dukes boxing guard that (de?)evolved naturally over time, and I have a fairly traditional background. Except for when I'm trying to bait shots down the center, I don't think my stance looks anything like a MT stance though.


    I don't know about hands down being a common practice in TMA. TKD yes, but that's due to their competition ruleset, 51+% of all TMA though? I'm not sure about that.
    styles that usually spar without permitting face punching or engage in tap sparring usually keep their hands low because there is no need to protect the face.

    the moment someone puts a little force behind their punches and gets you down the nose bridge, your hands will auto-shoot-up-to-protect-your-face-holy-****-what-the-****-is-this-my-face-hurts-oh-****-another-one-is-com...-stop-stop-stop.

    unfortunately many striking based TMA either tap spar or do not allow face punching, this is the biggest draw back i see in KK, i respect them for full contact sparring and hard body training, but the lack of face punching seriously changes the way they fight.

    so yes, most TMA have a hands down approach.
      #5
  6. Hesperus is offline
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    it's all vanity

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    Posted On:
    8/12/2009 1:56am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kano-Gracie

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What's a TMA, again? Haven't we already made the argument that boxing, MT, BJJ, Judo and wrestling are much, much older than Shotokan, TKD or aikido?
      #6
  7. socratic is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/12/2009 6:45am


     Style: gah, transition again

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by honest_truth View Post
    unfortunately many striking based TMA either tap spar or do not allow face punching, this is the biggest draw back i see in KK, i respect them for full contact sparring and hard body training, but the lack of face punching seriously changes the way they fight.
    Except Kyokushin guys keep their hands up to defend their heads from kicks. Probably why it's pretty easy to convert from Kyokushin to Kickboxing.
    Lord Krishna said: I am terrible time the destroyer of all beings in all worlds, engaged to destroy all beings in this world; Of those heroic soldiers presently situated in the opposing army, even without you none will be spared.
    Bhagavad Gita 11:32
      #7
  8. dwkfym is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/13/2009 12:28am

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     PDS Rifles Style: Univ. Florida Kickboxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A lot of western kickboxing is Kempo/Karate derived, with heavy influences from Muay Thai and Boxing.

    Set up to side kicks are the same from what I learned in HKD. Footwork from these western kickboxing gyms are similar to Kempo, Karate, KMA that have a relatively sideways stance. Certain kick-punch combos are similar to some moves from hyungs(kata/form) and I incorporate it, but it is sort of a chicken or egg argument.

    Aside from the general similarities, I don't see much else. I mean the whole TMA/MMA/KB dichotomy is artificial anyways. At my HKD school, one had was up at face level at all times. Other hand defended the body. (not the best form, IMO, but just to show not all schools teach to keep hands low.)
      #8
  9. Scott Larson is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/13/2009 9:31am


     Style: Ba Zheng Dao Quan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "TMA techniques" is way too generic. What are you trying to do specifically?

    I also 2nd the move of this thread to the basic forum.
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      #9
  10. dwkfym is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/13/2009 9:36am

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     PDS Rifles Style: Univ. Florida Kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think the OP just needs a few more years of hard cross-training. He'll open his eyes, not to sound condescending. Best of luck!
      #10
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