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  1. Artis Ferox is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2009 12:36am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Muay Thai, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks for the comments.

    My post was really intended as a rhetorical question to spark debate, in no way do I believe any of this will actually occur or be sanctioned by anyone other than armchair sadists like myself (joke).

    I thought that the general Bullshido consensus was: regardless of training intensity/aliveness, the TMAs are overall less effective than modern MMA/BJJ/Boxing etc. As in, 2 fighters, same size and strength, one does 3 years full contact Wing Chun or Karate, the other does 3 years full contact Muay Thai, the MT guy would be expected to win fights against the Chunner more often than not. What I am comparing is not aliveness of training (I did Chun and we sparred plenty), but how effectively the human body can integrate and use a fighting system under pressure. As in 3 years MT will yield a more able fighter than rigidly adhereing to every Chun concept while fighting (see Technical Problems in Wing Chun... my take) in the CMA forum. Thats my understanding of the general consensus, one can't read about the TMAs for any length of time without them getting picked on for some reason and not solely due to aliveness of training (and I admit my culpability in the matter also). And while some modern MMA fighters such as GSP have a black belt in Kyokushin Karate, does that mean they are actualy using it in the octagon, or just kickboxing (well Kyokushin is obviously not a very good example, due to its proximity to kickboxing, but you get the idea)?

    My original post was really intended for those practitioners of the TMA that have already dedicated a large part of their previous training to the TMA and feel somewhat impotent due to the massive success of MMA and related ring styles, not only in the ring but in street self defence. I am not advocating taking up the TMA over the MMA for any particular reason.
    I am just saying well why throw out ALL of your training and say its useless, when some techniques may well work against someone basically untrained.

    I know nothing of the sort will ever happen, I just thought instead of always MMA rings styles vs same, showcase some hardcore TMA against a no MA background. If TMA still gets owned, so be it.
  2. Hesperus is offline
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    it's all vanity

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2009 1:24am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kano-Gracie

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This thread is extra stupid now.
  3. Artis Ferox is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2009 1:41am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Muay Thai, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Show me the way, oh enlightened one. Oh that's right, armchair warriors can deconstruct any argument in 6 words, shucks why didn't I realise that before attempting to start a reasoned debate?
  4. wingchundo is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2009 2:07am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Artis Ferox View Post
    I thought that the general Bullshido consensus was: regardless of training intensity/aliveness, the TMAs are overall less effective than modern MMA/BJJ/Boxing etc.
    You thought wrong. Those MAs tend to be more effective BECAUSE of their training intensity/aliveness. There are exceptions, obviously.

    And you're forgetting that BJJ is a TMA at its roots. As is judo. Those are two arts that typically have excellent, effective training methods that utilize realistic drilling and live sparring.

    As in, 2 fighters, same size and strength, one does 3 years full contact Wing Chun
    Whoa there, pardner. Find me video of this elusive "full contact Wing Chun." I'm guessing that if it's actually decent-contact sparring, it looks just like kickboxing. (Disclaimer: I used to take Wing Chun and before that modified Wing Chun. No sparring in either.)

    or Karate,
    Like Kyokushin? Another widely respected TMA on these boards because... surprise: it typically has excellent, effective training methods that utilize realistic drilling and live sparring.

    Thats my understanding of the general consensus, one can't read about the TMAs for any length of time without them getting picked on for some reason and not solely due to aliveness of training (and I admit my culpability in the matter also).
    Ah, we get to the heart of the matter. You're sad that TMAs are held up to the same standards that BJJ, kyokushin, judo, MMA, sambo, etc. are held up to. Believe me, when "MMA" schools are found that don't use realistic training methods, they're ridiculed just as much. (see the epic peen-off between LI Guy and some karate sensei purporting to have MMA classes)

    I am just saying well why throw out ALL of your training and say its useless, when some techniques may well work against someone basically untrained.
    "May well work?"

    That's the problem. Non-alive training isn't necessarily useless, but potentially so. Why? Because it hasn't been tested. You have no clue if it actually WILL work. Would you buy a car without testing it out first? Would you jump in the middle of the ocean if your only swimming instruction came on dry land?

    This has been discussed and discussed many, many times on these boards.

    Look, I don't think anyone on here would say that you'd get NOTHING out of a TMA that doesn't have alive training. You can get in shape, develop better self-esteem and discipline, make new friends, collect 8-foot tall trophies, indulge your inner japanophile, hang out with loose TKD chicks...

    The problem is, you're most likely not getting useful fighting and self-defense skills.
  5. sandbag2 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2009 2:27am


     Style: Kung Fu combat wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    They don't need skill if they are big and strong. Brute force always beats fenece
  6. sandbag2 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2009 2:30am


     Style: Kung Fu combat wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The OP made a great topic though. I agree
  7. Hesperus is offline
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    it's all vanity

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2009 2:41am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kano-Gracie

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Artis Ferox View Post
    Show me the way, oh enlightened one. Oh that's right, armchair warriors can deconstruct any argument in 6 words, shucks why didn't I realise that before attempting to start a reasoned debate?
    Point of thread: let's coddle idiots.
  8. bigstu31s is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2009 4:18am


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I trained in Wing Chun for 5 years and sparring against a Noob was what convinced me that Wing Chun didn't work.
    Allow me to quote Bruce Lee here.
    Before I did Wing Chun a punch was just a punch and a Kick was just a Kick. Whilst learning Wing Chun a Punch was no longer a punch and a kick was no longer a kick. Unfortunately I never got to the stage where a Punch was just a punch again and a kick was just a kick again. So when a noob came in to class and starting throwing unorthadox punches and kicks I couldn't handle them as I was used to straight centre line punches and kicks. I remember telling one noob that he couldn't throw hooks in Wing Chun because they didn't work in real life.
    Wing Chun works against other less experianced Wing Chun fighters. If someone attacks you on the streets chances are he can fight. I'm a big guy so if someone confronts me I always think either they are tooled up, have lots of friends hiding around the corner or they know some ****.
    I don't want to turn this into a Wing Chun bashing thread as we have plenty of those already but a noob would get owned in a MT/Boxing club if he started throwing windmill punches, he would also get owned ina Judo/BJJ club.
  9. Beefstyles is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2009 7:27am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I must admit I find I would find style vs style fights interesting in theory, but I think in practise it'll be pretty predictable.
    I think this whole thing comes about by the fact that real training is hard. You are paying money to basically do exercise and learn skills, and unless you fight in tournaments you will never really need the skills (Modern society does not lead to unarmed fights that threaten your life that often). If you train and fight, you will know your limitations.

    However if you just train and are never tested, your limits are whatever you believe them to be. You can be as deluded as you want and nobody will call you on it normally and you'll never have to prove yourself. In this case why don't you just say "I can beat up a trained MMA fighter easy, because they don't know how to finish a fight etc"

    With the advent of the internet and MMA, people are thinking more. Maybe they aren't as tough as they thought. Their constructed world of their awesomeness seems a lot less likely, so they comprimise, saying "We may not beat a MMA fighter but we can beat up the average guy".
    Eventually they will realise the truth but its just a matter of time.
    It's much like the stages of dealing with grief (May have been on Scrubs)
  10. svt2026 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2009 8:05am


     Style: hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Consider the fact that someone who never trains but gets into fights frequently is probably better at fighting than most martial artist. And what better way is there to learnt to fight than actually do it. Most martial arts practitioners were never the type of person who would get into fights or want to fight in the first place, so thats why most TMA people suck. Those same people training MMA or MT would still suck.

    Take someone who is serious about their training and put in the hard work even in TKD, they definatly will have an advantage against someone who never trained. Same if you take someone who is in shape vs a "bill gates" type of guy.

    Bullshidos arguement about TMA is that most of them dont really train to fight. Its fine if you train traditional way, as long as you spar to see if you can actually do something when someone doesnt want you to. Yeah the TMA training methods are not realistinc but your not suppose base you whole taining on forms, air kicking and punching. This is mearly an exercise thats it. Just like shadow boxing its only a training tool.
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