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  1. danniboi07 is online now
    danniboi07's Avatar

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    7/29/2009 2:25pm


     Style: Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I read the whole OP and felt like nitpicking, but my lunch is only so long.

    Basically I'm going to say.... Untrained people fighting in MMA? Here you go

    http://www.mtv.com/ontv/dyn/bully_beatdown/series.jhtml
    "The pedant is he who finds it impossible to read criticism of himself without immediately reaching for his pen and replying to the effect that the accusation is a gross insult to his person. He is, in effect, a man unable to laugh at himself."óSigmund Freud, The Ego and the Id.

  2. u1ysses is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/29/2009 2:47pm


     Style: Judo, BJJ, MT noob

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
  3. tao.jonez is offline
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    Ninja Fruit

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    Posted On:
    7/29/2009 3:08pm


     Style: JKD, Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Artis Ferox View Post
    To get some much needed objectivity on the matter, bring back Kung fu and Karate, but not to pit them against BJJ or MMA (been there done that). Pit Kung Fu versus a "no skill" fighter (skill here referring to "martial arts" skill specifically), then pit MMA versus a "no skill" fighter. Even non fighters who will just go in there to have a go, and willing to take punishment. If MMA defeats the "no skill" fighters more often than do the TMA, this will be a final vindication of the proponents of MMA over the TMA for not only octagon supremacy but supremacy in street self defence. If TMA fighters experience some measure of success against these "no skill" fighters, this will undoubtedly come as a surprise to many, but will provide die hard practitioners of the TMA some hope that their years of dedication and effort were not completely in vain.
    ^ Stupid arguement. So what if a Wing Chun practicioner fares well against an untrained individual? It proves that he is trained to fight better than someone who isn't. But in my opinion the statistical effectiveness of MMA's in high level combat prove it's worth. So a person with a skill set we'll call level 1 beats a person with a skillset of level 0. Whoopee!

    A properly trained person will outperform an untrained person every time, statistically speaking. And the better, more effectively trained person will outperform the less trained, or poorly trained person. So truly, the arguement comes down to "what school of training incorporates the most effective training methods for actual combat?"

    Getting punched in the face prepares you to get punched in the face and deal with that situation. Getting grabbed and thrown...same thing. If you've never done anything more physically threatening than Siu Nin Tao and Wooden Dummy forms, how will you respond when your opponent is not imaginary? Non-resistant practice definitely does not prepare you for a resisting opponent as well as actually training with a resisting opponent. Period. It's not the effectiveness of the style or the moves and strikes per se. It's the method by which those techniques are trained.
  4. Kilbourn is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/29/2009 3:12pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Judo,TKD for funzies

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by wingchundo View Post
    Ugh, the "dirty fighting" argument again? Please use the search function.
    Did I say MMA fighters don’t know dirty fighting? No, I said it wasn’t accounted for in the cage. Did I say MMA fighters don’t know how to run? No, I said fights take place in a cage so running isn’t an option.
    Quote Originally Posted by wingchundo View Post
    Your argument assumes that no MMA practitioner is skilled enough to employ groin strikes, eye gouges, etc.
    No it doesn’t. It implies that there are variables that take place in self-defense situations that don’t exist in mma fights; therefore, it is not possible to test how an art would aid a person while those variables are in place. I said nothing about mma fighters not being able to cope with those variables.

    Now go visit your local bookstore and buy that Reading Comprehension book before you replay to one of my posts again.

    edited: to make it clear who I'm talking to.
  5. wingchundo is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/29/2009 3:20pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    therefore, it is not possible to test how an art would aid a person while those variables are in place.
    Are you serious? It's impossible to test how running away would aid a person in a fight? And impossible to train dirty fighting tactics? You're right, I didn't comprehend your initial post properly. It's worse than I thought.

    Oh, and I wasn't aware that this was your forum and you were the gatekeeper as to who can post and who cannot. The tenor of your response is telling.
  6. Matt Phillips is online now
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    7/29/2009 3:28pm

    supporting member
     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I would add that I see tons of nut shots and slips every time I go to a MT smoker. I have seen people lose wrestling matches for slapping their opponent in the face. Depending on the ref to save you in those situations is a bad idea from a self defense perspective. Of course MMA plugs most of these holes.
  7. Matt Phillips is online now
    Matt Phillips's Avatar

    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    7/29/2009 3:32pm

    supporting member
     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kilbourn View Post
    Did I say MMA fighters donít know dirty fighting? No, I said it wasnít accounted for in the cage.
    Gordeaux/Royce
    Gordeaux/Nakai
    Hess/Anderson
    Frye/Yvel
    pretty much anything starring Bob Schriber
    .
    .
    .

    the list goes on and on.

    Do you actually watch this sport, or just talk about it?
  8. Kilbourn is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    7/29/2009 4:11pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Judo,TKD for funzies

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Are you serious? It's impossible to test how running away would aid a person in a fight? And impossible to train dirty fighting tactics? You're right, I didn't comprehend your initial post properly. It's worse than I thought.

    Oh, and I wasn't aware that this was your forum and you were the gatekeeper as to who can post and who cannot. The tenor of your response is telling.
    My fault fault I forgot this was the internet, here let me use the Bullshido internet persona.

    **** what the OP said I donít agree. Yeah some **** can happen on street that isnít suppose to happen in the cage but you shouldnít judge a style on that. Think Kohsaka vs Fedor, does anyone think Sambo sucks because it won't protect you from an elbow? No. MMA is suppose to provide a fair playing field to test both fighters and styles, real life doesn't do this which is why I think mma is better way to test a skill then from what the OP was saying.
    And yeah you canít test running away in a cage as in if Iím in a cage and I do a seoi nage the fight just goes to ground. If I did it in another situation thereís a change that I could just run.
    Gordeaux/Royce
    Gordeaux/Nakai
    Hess/Anderson
    Frye/Yvel
    pretty much anything starring Bob Schriber
    .
    .
    .

    the list goes on and on.

    Do you actually watch this sport, or just talk about it?
    Like I said **** happens but itís not supposed to and you can't down play or nuttride a style because of it.

    Holy **** the first part of my post was to cover my bases and thatís what I get jumped on about so here just pretend this is all I wrote.

    Personally I think itís dangerous to train in an art with the expectation that your opponent is a flail-punching moron.
    *end of Bullshido persona*
  9. wingchundo is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/29/2009 4:23pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kilbourn View Post
    Personally I think itís dangerous to train in an art with the expectation that your opponent is a flail-punching moron.
    *end of Bullshido persona*
    Now that I'm down with. I never understood the advantage of training for morons when a decent high school wrestler could come in and ruin your day.

    I'm pretty convinced, however, that the idea that some arts train for your average Joe is just a code word for TEH STR33TS and TEH D3ADLY. It may not be on the surface, but it's there.
  10. Emevas is offline
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    Dysfunctionally Strong

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    Posted On:
    7/29/2009 5:45pm

    supporting member
     Style: Boxing/Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Artis Ferox View Post
    but somebody well trained in a decent martial art such as Wing Chun is quite well placed to give a street attacker with negligeable martial arts, combat sports or street fighting experience a trip to hospital (even though this same practitioner may not have the same level of success against an MMA fighter, even on the street).
    I will never in my life understand this "argument". People bring up how well a system works against an "untrained attacker" and the argument that "odds are an attacker on the street isn't going to be trained, so it's ok if your system doesn't fare well against trained fighters".

    Bullshit I say. You can't justify an inferior method by hoping that you won't run into a skilled attacker. Hope is not a plan. If your system works against trained fighters, it works against untrained fighters, so why train with an inferior method?
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
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