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  1. wingchundo is offline

    Welterweight

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    Posted On:
    8/02/2009 5:51pm

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by galois View Post
    Might, damn you, might!
    How about an example of what you're saying? Just one. Where a completely street-"trained" guy shows the same level of skill you'd see in a formally-trained fighter with a similar amount of time trained? Or even close to the same level of skill. I'd love to see that.

    There's plenty of streetfight videos out there. I've watched way more than I care to admit. And not once have I seen this mystical street skill in one of them.
  2. galois is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/02/2009 6:44pm


     Style: MT and judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by wingchundo View Post
    How about an example of what you're saying? Just one. Where a completely street-"trained" guy shows the same level of skill you'd see in a formally-trained fighter with a similar amount of time trained? Or even close to the same level of skill. I'd love to see that.
    Why does the length of time training have to be the same? I never said that fighting without training was as efficient as training, only that it could get results.

    Many people have argued against various misrepresentations of my position, so for clarity here it is.

    --------------------------
    I believe that:

    *Some* people with no formal training are more skillful in *some* basic aspects of fighting, such as punching, than *some* people trained in a related discipline.

    By skillful punching I mean delivering punches that are, for example, fast, on balance and without excessive compromise of defence.

    By trained I mean with at least a year training regularly (at least 4 hours a week).

    I do not believe that:

    Untrained people can become as skillful as decent quality trained performers, even in a relatively limited range of skills (such as punching).

    Untrained people can develop advanced techniques in the way that trained people can.

    ---------------------------

    I'm not claiming any authority other than not being an idiot (controversial I know). This is my opinion based on the fact that I have encountered several people who display no aptitude at all no matter how hard they train, and also on my belief that natural talent and 'practice in use' can go a long way.

    Sorry for the misleading nature of my original post.
  3. galois is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/02/2009 7:32pm


     Style: MT and judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    To be honest these 'street fighter' types probably don't exist in most societies today anyway. Anyone with significant interest in fighting can so easily take up boxing or the like they're unlikely to remain untrained for long, so whether they would have become skillful without training is impossible to say.

    I still in think in theory I may have a point but I doubt that counts for much.
  4. wingchundo is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/02/2009 10:06pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    OK, I repeat my request. Video please. I'd like to see what it is you're talking about.

    I'm not trying to be obtuse, but speaking on a conceptual level has gotten this discussion nowhere. Now, if you are correct, there should be video of at least a few skillful fighters with no formal training.
  5. Kintanon is offline
    Kintanon's Avatar

    Yes, I am smarter than you are.

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    Posted On:
    8/02/2009 10:12pm

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     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by galois View Post

    I agree with your ranking for fighting prowess if we're talking about the same guy (although I think you intended the middle two to be the other way round, otherwise you seem to agree with me), but I don't think the same thing always holds if you start with different people.
    No, I have it right. You will get better at fighting by fighting than you will with only training without ever fighting. Though by "fighting" I mean competing in your chosen art. So grappling tournaments, kickboxing matches, mma matches, etc... come under the heading of fighting in that context.
  6. DKJr is offline
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    Fasten your seat belts, and prepare for lift off

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    Posted On:
    8/02/2009 10:24pm

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     Style: Combat Cuddling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by wingchundo View Post
    How about an example of what you're saying? Just one. Where a completely street-"trained" guy shows the same level of skill you'd see in a formally-trained fighter with a similar amount of time trained? Or even close to the same level of skill. I'd love to see that.

    There's plenty of streetfight videos out there. I've watched way more than I care to admit. And not once have I seen this mystical street skill in one of them.
    Guy in the plaid shorts has never had formal training. :adios:

    YouTube - Daniel vs cool dude who's name I can't remember
  7. Matt Phillips is offline
    Matt Phillips's Avatar

    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    8/02/2009 10:28pm

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     Style: Novice Sub Grappler

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This about says it all:

    YouTube - Elevator fight
  8. Hesperus is offline
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    it's all vanity

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    Posted On:
    8/03/2009 12:17am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kano-Gracie

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by galois View Post
    *Some* people with no formal training are more skillful in *some* basic aspects of fighting, such as punching, than *some* people trained in a related discipline.
    I've read things from magic 8-balls that were less vague than this.
  9. Artis Ferox is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    8/03/2009 2:23am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Muay Thai, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by EternalRage View Post
    I liken this to a phase IV drug trial. The FDA does not compare a specific treatment to no treatment at all, phase IV trials are always new drugs vs the current standard of care. Do you have any idea how many bullshit drugs with horrible toxicities would be on the market if they were only compared to zero treatment to gauge efficacy?

    Just because you can take a BS system and use it against some drunk fratboy on a Friday night doesn't justify the bullshido. Bullshido is bullshido, period. It's the old "spoonful of feces in a tub of vanilla ice cream" argument.
    True, but UFC isn't only science its also entertainment. Getting some TMAs into the UFC (or MMA generally), might well get TMAers with their heads buried in the sand to actually start watching the UFC. If you're anti Bullshido martial arts (it sounds as though you are), and they win or fail against street toughs (not necessarily drunk fratboys), then fine, so be it. No ones expecting a Chow Gar practitioner to come in and take out Anderson Silva or GSP on their home turf. As for "bullshit drugs with horrible toxicities", they are already on the market (talking martial arts equivalent), otherwise nothing would differentiate this website from Sherdog. If more TMAers start investing time watching and taking lessons from MMA, it can only be a good thing for martial arts as a whole.
  10. Hesperus is offline
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    it's all vanity

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    Posted On:
    8/03/2009 5:16am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kano-Gracie

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Artis Ferox View Post
    No ones expecting a Chow Gar practitioner to come in and take out Anderson Silva or GSP on their home turf
    No one's expecting snails to have nuclear capabilities either. Wonder why...

    There is no TMA vs MMA dichotomy. There is only aliveness and completeness. Striking and/or grappling against resisting opponents. Either it is present in your training or it is not.

    If it is, you don't need any of the potential lessons this poorly-thought-out thread is trying to teach you. If it is not, there is already plenty of evidence as to Why Your **** Won't Work, and you either aren't aware (very unlikely), misunderstand the point (fairly likely) or have disregarded it all together (very likely). There are more than enough fights to show the first group, very easy terminology to explain to the second group, and gong sau or attrition (John Q. Public will wise up eventually) for the third.

    This thread is still useless.
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