7/26/2009 8:42pm, #1
So, I Went and Rolled with a BJJ BB
And a blue belt and a purple belt I think, and while the BB did dominate me more thoroughly, I realized that I couldn't defend any of their sweeps. My defence against sweeps is to stand up, but since we were starting from the knees, I didn't do that. I just tried to stay heavy or re-establish my base when they attacked it. It didn't work. Almost at all.
I'm going to be training with these guys hopefully at least once a week from now on. It's a 3 hour drive each way, or I'd go more often, because it was awesome.
Adam Zugec was the BB. He completely fucking owned me, made me feel like a helpless child. I expected that, but I didn't expect how effortless it was for him to take away my base and that the only thing I'd be able to do was stand and my guard passes were useless. Useless. I once passed his guard for half a second (a proud moment, BTW) and then he got it back and swept me.
I realize this is kind of a stupid way to start a thread, but I don't know what to say...I'm gonna do BJJ, never thought I would, but there it is.
Starting from the knees fucks me up, I'm so used to standing up all the time to get away/around the guard, or making the person stand back up with me so I can take them down instead of having to deal with the guard at all. I also standup to get out of mount (give up my back, defend the choke, get rid of the hooks, turtle, go for kimura/stand up). This experience brought home my flaws really obviously. I need to work on my mount escapes, my sweeps, and my guard passes.
I think my wrestling doesn't completely suck anymore. It's not spectacular, but it's OK. My submissions are OK too, I think. My sweeps and reversals from mount bottom are pretty sad, though.
So, if you read all that ****, what grips should I avoid giving my opponent when we start from the knees to avoid getting swept? Cause that seemed to be what fucked me up. I reached for my familiar leverage points and got swept every time. I dunno how to engage from on the knees.
So what grips
7/26/2009 9:45pm, #2
Was this gi or no gi?
7/27/2009 2:14am, #3
- Join Date
- Apr 2005
Keep in mind that in BJJ, even if you start from the knee's, standing up is perfectly reasonable, just so long as you don't do it with the intention to disengage. If you feel like you have a better chance to pass by standing up into there guard do so.
As far as grips, the most important one to watch is the (cross) collar grip. Collar grips are excellent tools for keeping posture broken, and anytime your opponent gets a good cross collar grip you are in danger of being choked.
Keep in mind that any time your opponent gets a grip(if he's any good) he has a specific goal in mind. It may be to keep you from passing(to stall basically) or it may be to set up a sequence of attacks, different people use the same grips towards different ends, and different people are dangerous with different grips. As you start to get more experienced you'll be able to have a decent idea of what attacks each grip might signify and you can play accordingly.
edit: I just realized that all my advice was centered around you already being in his guard, not on wrestling for the knee's. I pretty much refuse to knee wrestle, so I don't have too much advice on that end.
Last edited by dokomoy; 7/27/2009 2:21am at .
7/27/2009 1:00pm, #4
- Join Date
- Feb 2008
I never had the chance to roll with my BJJ instructor. He Demonstrated some techniques on me, but we never had a go, he has no browns either, just a few purples, and I think what I really need is to actually get handled like you said, might get my game in gear and make me train. Travel that extra 3 hours too.
7/27/2009 1:06pm, #5
- Join Date
- May 2002
Since you left ISFA, what have you been training for ground?
7/27/2009 1:09pm, #6
Standing up is ok to pass. Just do it with posture and get some grip control.
If you stay down, get off of both knees. Get one knee up and get some posture and some grip control.
7/27/2009 1:11pm, #7
Even though I am on hiatus as moderator, I would prefer that this thread be left in the AGD forum.
Also, "I told you so." or "BJJ is the greatest!" comments will not be tolerated. Constructive advice only please.
7/27/2009 1:26pm, #8
7/27/2009 1:58pm, #9
What grips to avoid to keep from being swept - damn. That's a list about a million miles long. It depends on your position relative to your opponent. I'd say in general, don't let them get any grip that takes you out of control of an extremity.
I'm getting to the point where instead of fighting (e.g. pulling against) a grip, I sort of ride and re-direct it. A typical example in knee position is when your opponent grips the back of your head and neck and pulls you forward and down. Instead of pulling backwards and fighting to get my head up, I grip their bicep or elbow and kind of roll my head forward and around while pushing their arm down and across my body (push their elbow into their belly button). Their balance and support on the back of my neck moves,changing their base and opening an opportunity to counter or re-establish my posture depending on timing. (**** this is hard to explain clearly.)
I guess I'd say that learning how to avoid being controlled by a grip is more important than not getting grabbed.
Further, there are some grips I'll give certain guys - in gi there's a guy who always fights for my lapel, but he always gets a shallow grip and can't finish with it. So I use his committed hand and try for shoulder and arm attacks on him. He doesn't have the leverage to sweep with the lapel either, so it's a non-threatening grip in this case. I'm not controlled by it, so I don't sweat it. Another guy gets the same grip on my lapel, but always shoots in deep. I'll spend a lot of energy defending this one, because he CAN finish with it.
I'm not entirely sure how to make it concise enough for a post, but I hope that helps some.
I'd also advise you to sort of make note on the primary and secondary hand positions that guys go for. Many attacks are based on one initial grip which breaks down your posture and leads up a ladder to a sweep or submission. Once you know you are caught you break; but hold the position and "reverse engineer" the submission by un-doing moves until you can see where you initially broke down enough to get caught. Higher belts should be willing and able to help you do this.
If sweeps are the primary concern, ask if you can just do positional rolling. In other words starting from knees, the first person to get a certain position "wins" and you start over. Mount, back, side control, whatever. It will keep you focused on your base, balance, and opponent control. Since you don't have to worry about getting subbed every second, you can focus more on the grips and body positions that are getting you swept or that are working for you.
7/27/2009 2:33pm, #10
Here are a couple of things.
1 - Don't start knee wrestling. Like you said, it is not normal to really fight from that position. Once you start, one of you should pull guard or start from a certain position, or start from standing.
2 - Don't cross grip in the beginning and don't let your opponent force your arm across your body. Alot of wrestlers (as well as general bjj beginners) make this mistake.
3 - Passing the guard
A - Look up. If you look at him, your posture is pretty much broken
B - Control the legs. With the gi, this is usually down by the ankles. But if it is no gi, you have to control the knees. Usually this includes breaking open the guard and getting one knee up and inbetween your opponents legs. This will give you better base and a better position to move from. Being on both knees makes any sort of mobility difficult. Remember not to have your base be to narrow with your knee up.
C - Pass the legs to control the hips. There are many variations for this. You can look up 'knee slide' pass if you don't already know it. Since you are probably pretty strong your game doesn't need to be high paced. Most wrestler I roll with are alot stronger, but they lack the tightness while passing. The knee slide pass would work to your advantage.
D - Lock down the upper body. I usually describe this as creating a diagonal line across their body. Left hip and right shoulder. As a wrestler I know you already know this, but you need to think about it as you are controlling the legs. As you control the legs determine which diagonal angle you want to control. Far side underhook is the best way to secure this for most beginners. With your weight on their right hip, you underhook their left arm. The hip prevents them turning away, the underhook prevents turning into you.
You might already know all of this. If so please don't take it as an insult.There is no cheating, there is only jiu-jitsu.