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  1. u1ysses is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/25/2009 7:13pm


     Style: Judo, BJJ, MT noob

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Gov't legislating and regulating RIGHTS is different than legislating and regulating PRIVILEGES. That's the primary problem with your argument.
    I don't usually base what I think the law should be like on precedent but on effect and analogy. It's very likely that the right to car ownership could have been in the Bill of Rights had it come into being at a different time period. We license people to use cars because we recognize misuse is a danger to others.

    Moreover, with arguments advanced about preventing governments from pacifying and controlling citizens, etc. - restricting car use and ownership has a much larger impact than restricting gun ownership, as they're a form of transportation with autonomy, getting the hell out of dodge is a more common and defensible form of resistance than shooting out your post office. W/r/t to the autonomy bit - think as opposed to passenger planes or whatnot (anyone else feel like they've entered a fascist country any time they go into an airport?)

    You have two things confused. Possession and permit to carry.

    Owning a firearm in your home is a right, and not subject to all of the regulations, save sound mind and not a felon.

    Carrying one out and about is not a right, and should be subject to every one of your points.
    Fair enough, that's a worthwhile distinction to make. It's weird to try and make the straight analogy on this point, as car **** always struck me as weird (isn't it the case that you can buy a car without a license but can't get a loan/lease or register it in your name?)

    The right stuff is complicated. I mean, I love the constitution as much as the next guy, but it was written prior to their being a police force, and I'm sure many of the founders wouldn't have consented to a police force if they had anticipated it. The context of gun ownership and use changes drastically when you go from local militias to a policed civilian populace.

    I just think this **** through and am stuck at this point in my line of reasoning - I am still open on this and my views aren't fixed, so bear with me and I'm happy to take other points into consideration and revise this:

    1) In tons of cases of gun violence / esp. massacre level violence, I am intrinsically bothered by how compliant, terrified, and helpless everyone is because they're at the mercy of one or two people with a gun who sort of know how to aim. Why is this the case? Because they're trained to behave this way, and refer to the state for their defense.

    2) If the state is to defend them comprehensively at this level, we'd need more police and some way of removing all firearms, etc. This isn't happening without magic, and the idea of an increased police force and a more pacified general public freaks the hell out of me.

    3) So, it would be better if more people were armed and capable of defending themselves and there were less situations where lone gunmen would be safe to mow down 30 people.

    4) Arming just anyone who wants to be armed who doesn't have the restraint, knowledge, or character to handle firearm use is a huge mistake, though. Especially, when you take our lovely primate-based social aggression tendencies. Most members of our species have an impulse to display and partake in aggression/violence that instinctively doesn't go to the extent of death, but can quite easily when you throw weapons into that mix, esp. firearms.

    5) So, people who are armed in the society should be able to pass some sort of licensing. Again, this requires an expansion of government control / monitoring, but the flipside here for me is to make it so that people would be allowed to go just about anywhere carrying a weapon - if you're a teacher in a school, if you're at the grocery store, or a restaurant.

    This is just a thought experiment for me at the moment, I could be completely wrong on this, I don't want to overstate any adherence to this specific point, and I really am as fluid on these political issues as I say I am -- this **** is just really damn complicated and can't be handled with slogans.
  2. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/25/2009 7:17pm

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     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtripp View Post
    If private ownership of Guns were the problem, we would all be dead by now....
    I find it odd that the same people who tell us we need to legalize drugs because we can never control them, seem to think we can ban guns because we can....
    The late Col. Jeff Cooper said way back in the '60's "It is clear we have many more good guys than bad guys. Arm all the good guys and that will be the end of the bad guys."
    30 years later, in "More Guns Less Crime" Kleck proved it....
    Sadly you will never remove this debate from the left/right because the Left by and large supports gun bans. I would suggest reading "The bias against guns" for some real insight.
    +Rep for Truth, short & sweet.
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  3. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/25/2009 7:26pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtripp View Post
    Carrying one out and about is not a right, and should be subject to every one of your points.
    Mtripp, how does the right to "bear arms" relate to the above statement?
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  4. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/25/2009 8:17pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by elipson View Post
    Places like Colombia, Venezuela, Brazil, Somalia....

    Jude you've made the argument before that gun violence and gun ownership are unrelated. Canada has stricter gun control than the States and yet has less gun violence. Funny. That seems to contradict your statement.

    This is besides the point. If you want to nueter the gun control lobby, find ways to stop gun violence!! Whether this means ending drug prohibition, improving the schools systems, better the correction system, or whatever. You guys are fighting the wrong battle by trying to stop gun control proponents. You need to stop the source of the movement and then everyone wins! There would be less crime and less calls for gun control. Start putting your energy to things that will lesson this violence and you will have fewer calls for gun control.
    So... remove the reasons for crime, world wide? Global education reform? Eliminate poverty, or any reason for someone to steal or rob at gunpoint? Eradicate all illegal drugs or any mind altering substance that someone would either steal to obtain or dealers would wield guns to protect?
    Any reason for people to bear arms for ILLEGAL purposes would be infinitely more troublesome to rectify than the problems of unregulated keeping and bearing of arms (by the way, law abiding citizens bearing arms has been proven to be problem free, statistically speaking. We're talking hundredths of a percent, not even worth mentioning)

    Every person who uses a gun for illegal purposes HURTS YOUR SIDE OF THE ARGUMENT. If you can address the violence itself no one will give a **** about gun ownership.

    You see how we have some less violent countries with high gun ownership and others with low gun ownership? It's because the correlation SUCKS. People on the right need to stop whining like paranoid brats hugging their guns for fear that someone will kick in the door and take them and start focusing on REAL issues motivating violence.
    Okay, maybe you should correct your thinking and consider that none of these "REAL issues motivating violence" have anything at all to do with MY, or any other citizen's, right to bear arms for their own protection AGAINST VIOLENCE, regardless of the "issue" it stems from. That's how individual rights work, they aren't justified or predicated upon some issue.
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  5. misanthropic777 is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/25/2009 8:27pm

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     Style: .45 ACP

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtripp View Post
    If you commit a violent crime with a gun, we lock you up for 10 years. Age doesn't matter, if you kill someone with a gun, we lock you up for the rest of your life.

    In short, your focus is off. In the "gun violence" you don't focus on the gun, you focus on the person who is violent.
    ZOMG!!!!!! A reasonable, rational approach! You clearly need help.

    Guns are tools. None of my guns have ever gone and killed someone on their own (that I know of - they could be sneaking out at night indulging in killing sprees I guess).

    Heading out the door so no time to get deeply into this, but look at the violent crime rates in the UK and Australia after their nearly total firearm bans and see how well it helped.
  6. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/25/2009 8:34pm

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     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by elipson View Post
    Interesting. In 2001, it would appear the state with the lowest gun rate has the much lower violent crime than texas and Tennessee, states with high gun ownership. Well this doesn't bode well for Jude!!!

    So basically the numbers do NOT support the statement that Although to be fair, the numers don't show a REALLY strong correlation in favour of banning guns either. But it does support my position that you are focusing on the wrong damn thing!!

    You want to talk about misinformation? You can start by talking about real issues and not just repeating MARKETING SLOGANS designed to increase your BUSINESS SALES.
    How about this? I have an right to keep and bear arms, right along with all of my other inalienable rights, and crime, poverty, your fucking opinion on the issue, or the price of tea in China have absolutely no bearing on the issue, AS LONG AS I AM NOT USING THEM IN A CRIMINAL MANNER. The gun/sword/knife/whatever is NOT CRIMINAL, it's all about the manner in which it is used.

    Oh, & for the record, I don't sell guns or ammo, nor am I paid either directly or indirectly by any gun lobby.
    Get my drift?
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  7. u1ysses is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/25/2009 9:03pm


     Style: Judo, BJJ, MT noob

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have an right (truncated)
    And this thread runs off into fail. I swear, it's easier to have a rational discussion on abortion than this subject. If anyone wants to talk with someone who doesn't already know every damn thing about this subject and actually cares about the subjects impact on society and individuals, etc., I'm game.

    Otherwise, just look at this instead:

  8. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/25/2009 9:27pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by u1ysses View Post
    ...
    1) In tons of cases of gun violence / esp. massacre level violence, I am intrinsically bothered by how compliant, terrified, and helpless everyone is because they're at the mercy of one or two people with a gun who sort of know how to aim. Why is this the case? Because they're trained to behave this way, and refer to the state for their defense.

    2) If the state is to defend them comprehensively at this level, we'd need more police and some way of removing all firearms, etc. This isn't happening without magic, and the idea of an increased police force and a more pacified general public freaks the hell out of me.

    3) So, it would be better if more people were armed and capable of defending themselves and there were less situations where lone gunmen would be safe to mow down 30 people.

    4) Arming just anyone who wants to be armed who doesn't have the restraint, knowledge, or character to handle firearm use is a huge mistake, though. Especially, when you take our lovely primate-based social aggression tendencies. Most members of our species have an impulse to display and partake in aggression/violence that instinctively doesn't go to the extent of death, but can quite easily when you throw weapons into that mix, esp. firearms.

    5) So, people who are armed in the society should be able to pass some sort of licensing. Again, this requires an expansion of government control / monitoring, but the flipside here for me is to make it so that people would be allowed to go just about anywhere carrying a weapon - if you're a teacher in a school, if you're at the grocery store, or a restaurant.

    This is just a thought experiment for me at the moment, I could be completely wrong on this, I don't want to overstate any adherence to this specific point, and I really am as fluid on these political issues as I say I am -- this **** is just really damn complicated and can't be handled with slogans.
    All though experiments aside, that's the way the Israelis do it, they have armed faculty & staff in schools. School shootings and terrorism just don't work, those that insist on committing violent acts publicly in Israel are almost exclusively limited to bombing. How many American suicide bombers would attack schools, or rob banks, or do drive by bombings on their drug-dealing competition?

    The problem with technological advances, esp in the case of weapons, is once they're out, they're out & there's no taking 'em back. Hey, there are guys in caves out there in Sand Land who can make semi-autos & full-autos with next to nothing. A very simple machinist shop can produce some pretty hairy **** with access to a hardware store.

    The great thing about force multipliers is that you want the best one you can get. Say they make guns illegal, for whatever reason. You're walking down the street, a law-abiding citizen, and three guys attempt to accost you armed with wooden clubs and rough ground home-made metal blades. They aren't after you life, come hell or high water, they aren't that committed, they just want some drug money, get the money out of your wallet or maybe pawn your watch or jewelry.

    Now.... would you rather have a walking stick, or a gentleman's sword, since we're all fucking gentlemen around here? or would you rather have back the small, relatively cheap, and easily concealable 9mm Glock 26 that used to travel inconspicuously in your jacket pocket or waist band? You know that such quality force multipliers exist, as you owned it prior, that is before it was melted down or sold by an oppressive gov't. Perhaps it's now in the pocket of some government agent who enforces laws against you with your own guns. Fun, huh?
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  9. elipson is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/25/2009 9:30pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Okay, maybe you should correct your thinking and consider that none of these "REAL issues motivating violence" have anything at all to do with MY, or any other citizen's, right to bear arms for their own protection AGAINST VIOLENCE, regardless of the "issue" it stems from. That's how individual rights work, they aren't justified or predicated upon some issue.
    None of what you just said will pacify the gun control lobby. You are arguing as if I was saying we should take all your guns. You can't just stick your fingers in your ears and yell "2nd amendment!!!" and expect the gun control lobby to back off.

    You are arguing the wrong point of my argument. Please try again. I'm telling you how to get the gun control lobby to back off. You are just encouraging the fight.
  10. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/25/2009 9:30pm

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     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by u1ysses View Post
    I knew someone would post this same ol' dry bullshit. Read the writings of the Framers, read the Federalist papers. Enlighten yourself as to what actually makes this country great. Maybe then you're understand what a "RIGHT" is, and why they're important.
    Or just go right on being an ignorant mouth breather.
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
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