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  1. Wounded Ronin is offline
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    ...is THE PENETRATOR

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    Posted On:
    7/25/2009 12:45pm

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     Style: German longsword, .45 ACP

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    How do undermine gun control?

    I believe that most people who support the political gun control movement in the United States do so not because of broader philosophical issues of self-defense or self-determination versus collectivism and public safety, but rather very simply because of ignorance. I feel like I personally am privledged to understand both sides of the "gun control debate" because I personally went from being pro-gun control when I was growing up in New York to being anti- as I got older and had more life experiences. In my opinion the NRA is using a fundamentally short-sighted strategy when its focus seems to be galvanizing or scaring its aging body of members about "elites" and "liberals" when the most effective long-term way to errode political support for outlandish gun-control schemes would be to spread knowledge and fight ignorance about firearms in as many Americans as possible. In my opinion the NRA has become too much a simple mouthpiece for the Republican Party and devotes too much of its resources in trying to gain traction for the Republican Party amongst its remaining supporters by focusing on cardboard-cutout evil liberals and by focusing disproportionately on this tactic does not serve the best long-term interests of promoting or preserving the right to bear arms.

    The gun control movement is viable only because of the widespread and comically extreme misconceptions and ignorance about firearms that exist in much of the United States, and which is perpetrated by ignorant journalists looking for scary news stories. Just the other day I found a news article with lots of silly firearms-related statements: http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/07/23/...ef=mpstoryview

    When James Huberty walked into a McDonald's restaurant 25 years ago this month, he knew he was going to kill somebody. He probably didn't know his murderous rampage would change how police departments work.

    At 3:40 p.m. on July 18, 1984, Huberty carried a long-barreled Uzi semiautomatic rifle, a pump-action shotgun and a handgun into a McDonald's in San Ysidro, an enclave of San Diego, California
    ...
    Huberty fired about 30 armor-piercing rounds [ED: 9mm rounds from the uzi; they probably weren't steel cored or 'armor-piercing' at all] at the officer, who could hear them striking metal posts and skipping off the asphalt.
    ...
    Huberty retreated inside as other police units arrived. Rosario ran back to his car to retrieve his Ruger Mini-14 military-style rifle
    Here at Bullshido those weird statements about firearms would cause people to giggle, but I remember that back when I was in 6th grade how I'd probably end up remembering statements like "Ruger Mini-14 military-style rifle" and forever more think about a Mini-14 as being some kind of omnipotent wand of death, no doubt frequently loaded with "armor piercing" rounds and used by drug dealers and psychos to jump out of the bushes and blow away the helpless citizenry.

    The phrase that keeps coming up in my nerdy mind is how a firearm is seen as a wand of magic missile in a world populated by level 0 fighters with three hitpoints apiece. Up until I actually took a firearms class and immediately learned to appreciate how difficult it is for a novice to hit the black on a slow-fire bullseye at 50 feet, I think the underlying assumption in my mind was that if you had any kind of firearm that each round in the magazine would hit and that one hit would be one kill. That firearms were infallible. I certainly wasn't the only person who thought this way. I remember back when I was in college talking to a woman about police use of deadly force and volume of fire, and how during our conversation she told me, "I thought you just shoot someone once and then they drop dead"; she had been expressing the idea to me that since a police officer has a firearm he must have complete control of a situation since it would be trivially easy for him to instantly kill anyone with perfect accuracy in any circumstances. You can also see this idea implicit if you go around on the internet reading peoples' reactions to the concealed carry in national parks legislation; many people who are uncomfortable with the passage of that law feel like now all of a sudden there will be people with absolute and casual power of life and death over them when they go to the parks, whereas before that would not have been the case.

    My point is here that people who want "gun control" so much are by and large only thinking that way because they are extremely ignorant about firearms. They are ignorant about the skills required to use them, about the illegal availability of firearms which has nothing to do with the legal availability, about the physiological impact of getting shot on the human body, about semi auto versus full auto, and about the cultural role that family firearms training plays in many parts of the United States.

    The best way, and by best I mean the most socially constructive, the most kind, and the most likely to succeed in the very long term, to undermine the gun control movement is to fight this ignorance with knowledge and pleasant experiences. Everyone who cares about the right to bear arms should make a special effort, whenever they are interacting with a friend or an acquaintance who is pro-gun-control, to take that person shooting and teach him or her what shooting is really all about. Let that person see just a little bit of the discipline, the skill, the appreciation for nature, and the meticulous maintenance and care that skillful operation of firearms entails.

    Lots of people have romantic ideas about samurai swords. You could go on about the history of samurai swords, the metallurgical techniques used in their construction, and the care that a samurai would use to maintain them. It would be all peaceful and 80s-asian and people wouldn't be scared. I think you can create the same idea about firearms when you demonstrate the love and care with which you handle them and the time you take to clean and oil them, and let people realize how difficult it is and how much training it requires to be very good at shooting.

    But the whole scary liberal hatred thing, which is almost the only thing I see coming out of the NRA these days, has a shelf life and depending on demographics and political shifts in the future could become a worthless strategy ultimately.
    “nobody shoots anybody in the face unless you’re a hit man or a video gamer.” - Jack Thompson
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Th...%28attorney%29
  2. u1ysses is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/25/2009 3:06pm


     Style: Judo, BJJ, MT noob

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What do you mean by "gun control?" IMO, the major problem is that people are polarized towards "don't legislate anything!" vs. "take all the guns away!" mentalities. I have a very open view on gun ownership, with the exception that I think people should be licensed to a similar extent to with cars, requiring testing, mandatory safety checks, observation of firing and safety habits, etc.

    Anyone who thinks I'm wrong want to take me shooting to change my mind?
  3. elipson is offline
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    Ad Hominem rocks.

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    Posted On:
    7/25/2009 3:23pm

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     Style: BJJ, mma

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Find a way to lower gun violence and you will take the wind out of the sales of the gun control movement.

    The answer is so FUCKING easy but so many pro-gun dumbasses don't seem to get it. You want to keep your guns? Fine. Find a way to lower gun violence and no one will care anymore. It's. that. fucking. simple.
  4. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/25/2009 3:40pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by elipson View Post
    Find a way to lower gun violence and you will take the wind out of the sales of the gun control movement.

    The answer is so FUCKING easy but so many pro-gun dumbasses don't seem to get it. You want to keep your guns? Fine. Find a way to lower gun violence and no one will care anymore. It's. that. fucking. simple.
    Yeah, & the curious part of this argument is that the best deterrent to violent gun crime is for responsible law-abiding citizens to carry everywhere they go. Funny how that works....
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  5. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/25/2009 3:42pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by u1ysses View Post
    What do you mean by "gun control?" IMO, the major problem is that people are polarized towards "don't legislate anything!" vs. "take all the guns away!" mentalities. I have a very open view on gun ownership, with the exception that I think people should be licensed to a similar extent to with cars, requiring testing, mandatory safety checks, observation of firing and safety habits, etc.

    Anyone who thinks I'm wrong want to take me shooting to change my mind?
    Gov't legislating and regulating RIGHTS is different than legislating and regulating PRIVILEGES. That's the primary problem with your argument.
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  6. Mtripp is offline
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    Choked out by Gene Lebell

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    Posted On:
    7/25/2009 4:04pm

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     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If private ownership of Guns were the problem, we would all be dead by now.

    I find it odd that the same people who tell us we need to legalize drugs because we can never control them, seem to think we can ban guns because we can.

    The late Col. Jeff Cooper said way back in the '60's "It is clear we have many more good guys than bad guys. Arm all the good guys and that will be the end of the bad guys."

    30 years later, in "More Guns Less Crime" Kleck proved it.

    Sadly you will never remove this debate from the left/right because the Left by and large supports gun bans. I would suggest reading "The bias against guns" for some real insight.
  7. Mtripp is offline
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    Choked out by Gene Lebell

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    Posted On:
    7/25/2009 4:07pm

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     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by u1ysses View Post
    What do you mean by "gun control?" IMO, the major problem is that people are polarized towards "don't legislate anything!" vs. "take all the guns away!" mentalities. I have a very open view on gun ownership, with the exception that I think people should be licensed to a similar extent to with cars, requiring testing, mandatory safety checks, observation of firing and safety habits, etc.

    Anyone who thinks I'm wrong want to take me shooting to change my mind?
    You have two things confused. Possession and permit to carry.

    Owning a firearm in your home is a right, and not subject to all of the regulations, save sound mind and not a felon.

    Carrying one out and about is not a right, and should be subject to every one of your points.
  8. elipson is offline
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    Ad Hominem rocks.

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    Posted On:
    7/25/2009 5:53pm

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     Style: BJJ, mma

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah, & the curious part of this argument is that the best deterrent to violent gun crime is for responsible law-abiding citizens to carry everywhere they go. Funny how that works....
    Places like Colombia, Venezuela, Brazil, Somalia....

    Jude you've made the argument before that gun violence and gun ownership are unrelated. Canada has stricter gun control than the States and yet has less gun violence. Funny. That seems to contradict your statement.

    This is besides the point. If you want to nueter the gun control lobby, find ways to stop gun violence!! Whether this means ending drug prohibition, improving the schools systems, better the correction system, or whatever. You guys are fighting the wrong battle by trying to stop gun control proponents. You need to stop the source of the movement and then everyone wins! There would be less crime and less calls for gun control. Start putting your energy to things that will lesson this violence and you will have fewer calls for gun control.

    Every person who uses a gun for illegal purposes HURTS YOUR SIDE OF THE ARGUMENT. If you can address the violence itself no one will give a **** about gun ownership.

    You see how we have some less violent countries with high gun ownership and others with low gun ownership? It's because the correlation SUCKS. People on the right need to stop whining like paranoid brats hugging their guns for fear that someone will kick in the door and take them and start focusing on REAL issues motivating violence.
  9. elipson is offline
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    Ad Hominem rocks.

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    Posted On:
    7/25/2009 6:31pm

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     Style: BJJ, mma

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    To drive the point home that there is a shitty correlation between gun ownership and violent crime, and went and did some digging.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...ownership.html
    http://www.fbi.gov/filelink.html?fil...xl/01tbl05.xls

    you can do the comparisons yourself. Let me give you the tl;dr version, picking a few states.

    We will compare crime per 1,000,000/ % admitted gun owners. you could break them down to violent crime if you want. Also, the gun ownership page is a survey, so take it for what its worth.

    Alabama: 4.319.4/ 51.7%
    Alaska: 4,236.2/ 57.8%
    Hawaii: 5,3861/ 8.7%
    Montana: 3,688.7/ 55%
    Massechussetts: 3,098.6/ 12.6%
    Nevada: 4,266/ 33.8
    Rhode Island: 3,684.9/ 12.8
    Tennesse: 5,142.8/ 43.9%
    Texas: 5,152.7/ 35.9%
    Wyoming: 3,517.6/ 59.7%

    Interesting spread eh? There seems to be **** all for correlation. What is even more interesting is that if you take the three states with the worst crime, of the ones i've listed, you get hawaii, texas, and tennessee. TX and TN both have high gun ownership, but Hawaii practically none, and yet it has a higher crime rate. And then we look at violent crime for those states.
    Texas: 572.8
    Tennessee: 745.3
    Hawaii: 254.6

    Interesting. In 2001, it would appear the state with the lowest gun rate has the much lower violent crime than texas and Tennessee, states with high gun ownership. Well this doesn't bode well for Jude!!!

    So basically the numbers do NOT support the statement that
    Yeah, & the curious part of this argument is that the best deterrent to violent gun crime is for responsible law-abiding citizens to carry everywhere they go.
    Although to be fair, the numers don't show a REALLY strong correlation in favour of banning guns either. But it does support my position that you are focusing on the wrong damn thing!!

    You want to talk about misinformation? You can start by talking about real issues and not just repeating MARKETING SLOGANS designed to increase your BUSINESS SALES.
  10. Mtripp is offline
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    Choked out by Gene Lebell

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    Posted On:
    7/25/2009 6:55pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    OK... I can fix it.

    If you commit a violent crime with a gun, we lock you up for 10 years. Age doesn't matter, if you kill someone with a gun, we lock you up for the rest of your life.

    In short, your focus is off. In the "gun violence" you don't focus on the gun, you focus on the person who is violent.
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