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  1. RoninPimp is offline
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    BJJ Black Belt

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    Posted On:
    7/24/2009 10:50pm

    supporting member
     Style: Rex Kwon Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My guard game is definitely a sweep game. I'm 220lbs and prefer to fight from the top. Plus I was a Judoka before BJJ and sweeps are just throws initiated from the guard.

    The basic strategy I was taught from closed guard is to work submissions until they open my guard, then work to sweep.
  2. laevus is offline

    Lightweight

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2009 3:18pm

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     Style: Sambo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think its less due to build (6'5", 250) and more due to the style, but I also play a very position improving-based bottom game. Throwing subs out there is useful, but I end up mostly using the subs to get the sweep or improved position. My only sub success in tournaments has come from the top position.
  3. 265lbsfist is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2009 4:42pm


     Style: BJJ/MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by laevus View Post
    I think its less due to build (6'5", 250) and more due to the style, but I also play a very position improving-based bottom game. Throwing subs out there is useful, but I end up mostly using the subs to get the sweep or improved position. My only sub success in tournaments has come from the top position.
    Me too. I've never subbed anyone in competition from my back. I've swept lots of guys but never subbed anyone from my guard.
    This might be one of the causes for me subconsciously focusing on sweeps over subs maybe?

    Tried to play from the bottom today with the new guys in training and went for subs but couldn't really latch on to one and instinctively swept them instead when they threatened to pass.
    Let them sweep me back and started all over again.
    It might take me some time and frustration but I'll definitely try to develop a not completely rookie sub game from guard at least.
  4. laevus is offline

    Lightweight

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2009 7:21pm

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     Style: Sambo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 265lbsfist View Post
    Me too. I've never subbed anyone in competition from my back. I've swept lots of guys but never subbed anyone from my guard.
    This might be one of the causes for me subconsciously focusing on sweeps over subs maybe?

    Tried to play from the bottom today with the new guys in training and went for subs but couldn't really latch on to one and instinctively swept them instead when they threatened to pass.
    Let them sweep me back and started all over again.
    It might take me some time and frustration but I'll definitely try to develop a not completely rookie sub game from guard at least.
    I dont see it as a handicap, really. Obviously, letting a little guy keep top position is no smarter, but when you have another 250 pounder sitting on your chest, taking top position away from them should remain the priority IMHO.

    Then again, my coach describes the Sambo strategy as being "Take them down, keep top position, submit them. If they get on top, sweep them, keep top position, submit them. If they lock you into their guard game, stand up, take them down again, keep top position".

    So yeah. No shame in favoring sweeps over submissions, so long as you dont entirely neglect the subs, which it doesnt sound like youre doing. As they say: position before submission. From a purely sport based context, sweeping scores you points. Attempting subs doesnt.
  5. 265lbsfist is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2009 7:35pm


     Style: BJJ/MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hey! Maybe I´m an ugly duckling BJJ guy but in reality a swan sambo guy? ;)

    Yeah, I see what you mean but I just want to be a sub threat from all postions ´cause being able to threaten an opponent with more offensive options usually opens him up for more stuff too.

    If he knows I´ll only be sweeping him he can stall pretty handily but if sub attempts are intertwined with my sweeps he needs to worry about so much more.
  6. laevus is offline

    Lightweight

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2009 9:38pm

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     Style: Sambo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 265lbsfist View Post
    Hey! Maybe I´m an ugly duckling BJJ guy but in reality a swan sambo guy? ;)

    Yeah, I see what you mean but I just want to be a sub threat from all postions ´cause being able to threaten an opponent with more offensive options usually opens him up for more stuff too.

    If he knows I´ll only be sweeping him he can stall pretty handily but if sub attempts are intertwined with my sweeps he needs to worry about so much more.
    Training sub/sweep chains is obviously the best course (I know, I know.. consider this my staking of the claim for promotion to Captain Obvious); ie kimura to sweep from full guard, swim under to toehold from half-guard lockdown, there are many more than I could list.

    I'd suggest bringing the subject up with your coach. Ask if you can go over a new sub-attempt-to-sweep. Worst he can say is no.

    Wait, you're a BJJ guy?
    Strike that, the worst he can say is 'Leglocks are evil, they're way too dangerous for you to attempt, ugly little duckling'. ^_-
  7. Bustardo is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/27/2009 11:44pm


     Style: BJJ/Pekiti Tersia/Hsing-I

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm a pretty big guy in a club with lots of very small guys. I was 300 lbs and the majority of people in the club were 150 or less at the time. As a result I've spent the majority of my 3 years of training playing off my back. My subs are getting to a point where I can hit two of the big three (triangle and omaplata, not the armbar) with high frequency on people who're relatively the same skill level. My sweeps however are really good for the amount of time I've been playing.

    However, as a result my top game is relatively terrible.

    Over the past year I've lost a signifigant amount of weight. I'm 65 lbs lighter than I was in April. The most annoying thing about this is now I'm having a very hard time putting my weight. I'm still a pretty large guy, but my weight is distributed so differently then it was that I'm having a hell of a time.
  8. much2much is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2009 7:13am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm a small guy with long limbs.

    When on the bottom of full guard I have far higher success with sweeps and have very low success with submissions. If they stop the sweep that is where your submission will be. Ie. flower sweep and they post with the opposite hand then you have some arm attacks. Most people with experience of the specific sweep let the sweep happen as they know they've still got a chance to get back to the top instead of tapping.

    Even at high levels of competition they primarily get a sweep not submission in this position. Submissions from closed guard are comparitively rare and as far as I can tell happen because of a double threat of submission or sweep. Even when fighting with new people I find that setting up the submission with a sweep is the best way as they can't recognise the threat before its too late whereas a more experienced person will let the sweep happen.

    Trying to make a submission happen gives more passing tools than the sweep.
  9. Ryno is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2009 4:50pm


     Style: FMA, Jujutsu/Judo/SAMBO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by laevus View Post
    Then again, my coach describes the Sambo strategy as being "Take them down, keep top position, submit them. If they get on top, sweep them, keep top position, submit them. If they lock you into their guard game, stand up, take them down again, keep top position".

    So yeah. No shame in favoring sweeps over submissions, so long as you dont entirely neglect the subs, which it doesnt sound like youre doing. As they say: position before submission. From a purely sport based context, sweeping scores you points. Attempting subs doesnt.
    I'd have to agree with the observation that SAMBO has a definite preference for attaining top position. It's certainly evident at my club. You just don't see as much aggressive sub attempts from closed guard. There's definitely an emphasis on getting sweeps and attacks from top position.

    Personally, I've got a pretty heavy top game, but knew I was lacking off of my back. In the last year or so, I've been really focusing on working guard, and not playing the smashing big-boy (6'2, 230+) top game that I'd previously relied on so heavily. I've been focusing on subs from the bottom and sweeps that I wasn't so hot at, and it's paying off.

    Moving your hips around effectively to set up subs can be very challenging for big boys. But we can tend to minimize this with our hamhanded grips of death to buy time for hip movement. I've been having good success with armbars, some with omoplatas, and have recently been hitting triangles every now and then (god damn holy grail for me, I'm a triangle retard). Frequently, I'll hit these after baiting with collar chokes.

    As Upa said, just start working on your weak spots with less experienced people. Get coaching. Then work your way up the food chain. Force yourself out of your comfort zone.

    One of our brown belts told me that he'll intentionally put himself in positions he's weaker at just for the practice, even if he could avoid those positions had he wanted to. Then he'll just be forced to work,and learn rather than circumventing his weaknesses. (at this point he doesn't have many).

    This makes a hell of a lot of sense, once you've analyzed the holes in your game.
  10. UpaLumpa is offline
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    Exasperated.

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2009 5:07pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryno View Post
    One of our brown belts told me that he'll intentionally put himself in positions he's weaker at just for the practice, even if he could avoid those positions had he wanted to. Then he'll just be forced to work,and learn rather than circumventing his weaknesses. (at this point he doesn't have many).

    This makes a hell of a lot of sense, once you've analyzed the holes in your game.
    I pull guard (or pull myself under side control) a lot for just those reasons.
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