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  1. DerAuslander is offline
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    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

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    Posted On:
    7/29/2009 11:02am

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You need to research the Okinawan tradition better if you think sparring is a new thing.

    Further, "aliveness" as outlined in that video by Thorton, is not the same as sparring. Sparring is certainly alive, but it is not the only training method that is. Pad drills, lock flows, etc, can be alive.

    One-steps are not.

    Because they are not alive, they do not build a base of gross motor skill, and thus are an inferior method of training. They can be substituted easily for better training methods, even if you are training such things as knifehands, eye gouges, etc.

    You're excused.
  2. Daniel Sullivan is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/29/2009 11:41am


     Style: Kendo & Kenjutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Step sparring seems to be a staple of every TKD school that I have trained at, regardless of organization. Could just be the area.

    Some did them in liu of any real sparring, others used them for anyone that did not have protective gear, and others used them for raw beginners and then graduated the students to free sparring once they were comfortable with the techniques.

    Step sparring has its uses as a training tool, but is no substitute for free sparring. While using step sparring instead of free sparring will lower your club's liability level, it kind of defeats the purpose.

    As far as doing them right, it is more a question of whether or not you are performing the specific techniques correctly and timing your responses in a way that you will effectively counter whatever attack is being executed by your partner.

    Daniel
  3. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/29/2009 12:05pm

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You don't get it either, Daniel.
  4. Namsaram is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/29/2009 1:28pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Traditional TKD (exITF)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    [quote=DerAuslander108;2180734]You need to research the Okinawan tradition better if you think sparring is a new thing.

    ...... I am quite familiar with it. Do you refer to motobu-ryu type of soft skills as taught by master Uyehara and Taika Seiyu Oyata, are you referring to Goju or Uechi type of drills, or the more contemporary bogu kumite? In either case, sparring has been marginal to the Okinawan karate tradition and only received greater attention starting on the early XXth century.

    Further, "aliveness" as outlined in that video by Thorton, is not the same as sparring. Sparring is certainly alive, but it is not the only training method that is. Pad drills, lock flows, etc, can be alive.

    ...... I understand that, you know, more than twenty years of training in TKD, some Japanese kenpo, some aikido, some hapkido, some progressive kung fu... I know what you mean.

    One-steps are not.

    Because they are not alive, they do not build a base of gross motor skill, and thus are an inferior method of training. They can be substituted easily for better training methods, even if you are training such things as knifehands, eye gouges, etc.

    ...... Your ALIVE or DEAD classification is quite binary and restricted when attempting to deal with one-steps. There is a certain tempo to the response to the attack (so no dead stuff), sure it is not as alive as other training tools, but that does not make it necesarily inferior unless you propose some replacement that has all the same possibilities and none of the defects of one-steps. And I do not intend to base my training mostly on one-steps: for some things, they simple seem to work best than other drills, but they are a minor part of training. You have not addressed my Judo or Hapkido examples so that I may see why they are admissible but well performed one-steps are not.

    You're excused.
    ...... Thanks for that, I would really appreciate it if I was under your authority, or if I commited some fault. Not the case.[/quote]

    My answers are in italics
  5. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/29/2009 1:38pm

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Learn to use the quote function.

    Quote Originally Posted by Namsaram View Post
    ...... I am quite familiar with it. Do you refer to motobu-ryu type of soft skills as taught by master Uyehara and Taika Seiyu Oyata, are you referring to Goju or Uechi type of drills, or the more contemporary bogu kumite? In either case, sparring has been marginal to the Okinawan karate tradition and only received greater attention starting on the early XXth century.
    No, I refer to the practices pre-XXth century and especially those coming from Fujian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Namsaram View Post
    ...... I understand that, you know, more than twenty years of training in TKD, some Japanese kenpo, some aikido, some hapkido, some progressive kung fu... I know what you mean.
    Actually, you don't since 1) all the arts you've listed are known for preferring dead training over alive training, 2) Your continued commentary still makes the same mistakes as to what aliveness is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Namsaram View Post
    ...... Your ALIVE or DEAD classification is quite binary and restricted when attempting to deal with one-steps. There is a certain tempo to the response to the attack (so no dead stuff), sure it is not as alive as other training tools, but that does not make it necesarily inferior unless you propose some replacement that has all the same possibilities and none of the defects of one-steps. And I do not intend to base my training mostly on one-steps: for some things, they simple seem to work best than other drills, but they are a minor part of training. You have not addressed my Judo or Hapkido examples so that I may see why they are admissible but well performed one-steps are not.
    Yes, alive drilling has all of the same possibilities as one steps and none of the defects.

    Your judo example is irrelevant, as Judo training is modelled on an alive process of kuzushi & randori, with kata as an adjunct much later, after the delivery system has been developed through alive training.
  6. ZenOfAnger is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/29/2009 2:02pm


     Style: Judo+soon 2b bjj,boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There is a similar debate going on in the FMA forum with good ol' foxguitar defending kata. It's kind of sad how many people just don't get, even marginally.

    I had done one-steps in martial arts ever since I had joined TKD. One of the most prevalent things I notice now that I have moved on after 6 and a half years of it is that those who teach one-steps:

    1.)over-use it
    2.)tout it as something it definitely is not
    3.)think that it is as valid as any other training for techniques

    After doing judo, and experiencing bad judo which was set up very similar to a one-step like format, I realized how silly it is to even start with them in training no matter what the art. From experience, it seems much better to teach a technique statically without resistance the same way you would use it with resistance, but only until they get the basics of it down, which only takes few minutes. It is then you start to drill it with resistance, and there is no need to ever choreograph it into one-steps.

    Do them if you like, but they seem to do little to actually develop physical/mental skills, which other training methods do much better.
    Let your anger be like a monkey trapped inside a pinata; waiting inside, hoping that the children don't break through with the stick.

    -Master Tang (Kung Pow! Enter the Fist)

    A word to the wise ain't necessary. It's the stupid ones who need the advice.
    Bill Cosby

    The believer is happy, the doubter wise.
    Greek proverb

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicko1 View Post
    Martial Talk is not neutral, it's just neutered.
  7. Namsaram is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/29/2009 2:03pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Traditional TKD (exITF)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    All I know about the Fujian connection (white crane, according to most authors) does not include training specifics beyond interesting anecdotes. And it should be part of Pangai noon - Uechi, for what I understand (my Okinawan reference author is Pat McCarthy's koryu uchinadi).

    The progressive Kung Fu I mentioned simply is not "known" for any quality. But it was basically lots of freestyle chisao-type of training, sparring, etc with no forms of any kind, and it included some wrestling (not isolated, but the usual end of a sparring situation, one guy trying to grab the other's jewels while the other looking for an armbar or whatever (this was in 1986, prior to the BJJ revolution). That is as alive as you can get in training.

    As for judo being based on kuzushi and randori (true, but kuzushi is equilibrium management and randori is the contest itself, different conceptual matters), the same can be said about TKD in connection with proper target contact with correct timing (the TKD aspect comparable to Kuzushi) and sparring. So if you admit certain DEAD practices in Judo because it is not based on them, similar line of thinking may apply to TKD, provided that a decent amount of ALIVE training is done.

    Again, until you see the one-step I do in the way I do it, I believe you should at least keep respecful skepticism rather than full rejection for the unknown.
  8. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/29/2009 2:07pm

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Where the hell are you getting the idea that Judo does "one-steps"?

    Have you even trained in Judo?

    Further, as Thorton states, "correct timing" cannot be developed in a dead pattern such as one-steps. It is impossible. Timing is not a static attribute.
  9. 1point2 is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/29/2009 2:12pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 剛 and 柔

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Nam, when we say "aliveness" we mean a very specific thing. It's not what you think it is. Would you care to learn about the term you're misusing?

    As for your Okinawan understanding, you're wrong, as DerAus said. Sparring was fundamental in many Okinawan schools throughout.

    In addition, your progressive kung fu sounds worthless by the mere fact that you assert quite laughably that "That is as alive as you can get in training." with regards to chi-sao ending in handjobs.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
  10. ZenOfAnger is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/29/2009 2:24pm


     Style: Judo+soon 2b bjj,boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DerAuslander108 View Post
    Where the hell are you getting the idea that Judo does "one-steps"?

    Have you even trained in Judo?

    Further, as Thorton states, "correct timing" cannot be developed in a dead pattern such as one-steps. It is impossible. Timing is not a static attribute.
    Is this aimed at me? I will answer regardless.

    Well, I thought it did when I started it, well, it was crap judo, but after doing actual judo just as recently as last week, I can't recall ever doing a single drill that resembled one-steps in judo. Uchikomi for an outer-reap in judo feels nothing like doing a rising block to a step out revere punch one-step in TKD.

    The principal and methods behind them are what differs, but bad uchikomi work without the kazushi and proper footwork, I reckon, could resemble one-steps rather quickly. The fact that uchikomi drills are not over-styleized unrealistic ways of teaching techniques to students is also a factor I think one-steps overlooks, that the same way I do kazushi for a throw in uchikomi is the same way I get kazushi for a throw in randori.

    In one-steps you learn a counter prductive way to do a technique (i.e. turn your hips backwards for power), then in sparring you have to do it in a completely different manner. There is no correlation in that type of training and it only serves to confuse the student.

    Is that clear enough?
    Let your anger be like a monkey trapped inside a pinata; waiting inside, hoping that the children don't break through with the stick.

    -Master Tang (Kung Pow! Enter the Fist)

    A word to the wise ain't necessary. It's the stupid ones who need the advice.
    Bill Cosby

    The believer is happy, the doubter wise.
    Greek proverb

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicko1 View Post
    Martial Talk is not neutral, it's just neutered.
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