Zen Do Kai

[NoKandu]

Yeah, ZDK/the BJC is of course still around, but it's not the powerhouse it was in the 70s, 80s and even early 90s. I know they still do the mass gradings, but from what I've heard, they're fairly soft. I'd bet there are still individual dojos that are a bit more hardcore, but it's mostly pretty standard tappy-tap karate.

All the biker gang/security industry connections are gone, I think.

The flavour-of-the-month style changing continues. The latest is aikido and systema.

Well, that even more interesting-aikido or systema not on their site, currently. My bro did two years of aikido, loved it-perhaps being ex-army and a berzerker it appealed to him, calmed him down, which I suspect is what ZDK didi in the first place, with the traditions, the meditation, the -whatever you want to call it.

I don't know what to make of it, but I learn't, up to green belt-all sorts of stuff, some basic judo throws, every wrist lock going, ground foot locks, bjj leg bars, thai elbows and knees, (and kicks), I was shown all of this stuff, and it backed up what I considered to be good stuff. And this before 1990.
But as a small, financially challenged dojo, proper pads for full contact just weren't around, (headgear, bodygear) had a 5th dan If I recall turn up to grade , stuck around to teach the newbs a few things, and kicked our ass.

There is a very particular roundhouse to the head, I will never forget, knocked me rotten-I had brocken some "protocol" of some sort , maybe tried to sweep a higher belt, maybe.....stepping it up a notch, against a fifth Dan black belt in "mostly" full contact sparring is a bad idea.

They really neede'd to put this stuff in fine print, it's the protocol, the quasi japanese bullshit tradtions that eventually turned me off it.
Would have kicked my ass anyway, and did, completely destroyed me.


Very little that was semi contact about it "that" incident it was explained, if we were dumb enough to enter a tournament, this kind of treatment is childs play, and at that time, members were encouraged to enter the various full contact karate tournaments.
Higher grades, obviously, but that was around even then.

All things considered, the failure to teach newbs stuff that actually helped, or worked, and the lack of insistence on getting the correct technque in what we were shown, (oddly enough, due to lack of drills, or serious drills) is the greatest black mark in my book, at the time.


Particular reference, to the stomach punch, as taught at the time.....its bollocks, any stomach "grab and uppercutslug" is far superior to it.

[JohnSambell]

I know this is an old thread but I thought I'd better comment, as someone who is currently training in a ZDK school.

There are still a lot of hard bastards around from the first generation of students. And going against logic, they seem to get harder as they go on, if a bit slower.

Sparring with any ZDK blackbelt will leave you injured and embarrassed.

The 2nd Dan grading is no joke.

Richard Norton is still unbelievably fast and strong - and doesn't show any signs of slowing down. Bob seems to have mellowed a bit. I guess you get to a point where you've had enough of the violence and start looking for something else. I just hope he doesn't start believing in Ki!

Yes the gradings are expensive, as are the gis, but in my school there has never been any pressure to pay for either. You grade if you want, you wear a gi if you want. Half the class normally turns up in short and t-shirts, and no-one cares if you've left your belt at home by mistake.

Officially, you have to wear a gi to grade, but I have seen people grade wearing street clothes.

There are Muay Thai, MMA and BJJ classes where no one wears a gi, and there are more traditional classes were the instructor and most of the students wear gis.

I think that the connection with security/bouncers/police etc. is still there in a few schools, but only if the instructor is a 1st generation student.

There is quite a strong connection with the 'street' in some schools, particularly in less salubrious locations. What I mean is that young guys will go out on a Friday or Saturday night and get into a fight (as young guys do), and they'll take there experiences back to class. As an example, we lost two guys in a knife fight a couple of years ago, so knife defence and knife fighting were added to the curriculum.

[battlefields]

I know this is an old thread but I thought I'd better comment, as someone who is currently training in a ZDK school.

There are still a lot of hard bastards around from the first generation of students. And going against logic, they seem to get harder as they go on, if a bit slower.

Sparring with any ZDK blackbelt will leave you injured and embarrassed.

The 2nd Dan grading is no joke.

Richard Norton is still unbelievably fast and strong - and doesn't show any signs of slowing down. Bob seems to have mellowed a bit. I guess you get to a point where you've had enough of the violence and start looking for something else. I just hope he doesn't start believing in Ki!

Yes the gradings are expensive, as are the gis, but in my school there has never been any pressure to pay for either. You grade if you want, you wear a gi if you want. Half the class normally turns up in short and t-shirts, and no-one cares if you've left your belt at home by mistake.

Officially, you have to wear a gi to grade, but I have seen people grade wearing street clothes.

There are Muay Thai, MMA and BJJ classes where no one wears a gi, and there are more traditional classes were the instructor and most of the students wear gis.

I think that the connection with security/bouncers/police etc. is still there in a few schools, but only if the instructor is a 1st generation student.

There is quite a strong connection with the 'street' in some schools, particularly in less salubrious locations. What I mean is that young guys will go out on a Friday or Saturday night and get into a fight (as young guys do), and they'll take there experiences back to class. As an example, we lost two guys in a knife fight a couple of years ago, so knife defence and knife fighting were added to the curriculum.

HALT! Where are you based?

[JohnSambell]

Why you wanna know?

[battlefields]

Because two people losing their lives in knife fights is not that common in Australia and I am about two seconds from calling you out on the bullshit.

[JohnSambell]

I'm in country Vic. Knife attack was in Melbourne, I think a few years ago - maybe more. Not friends of mine but still pretty painful. I imagine it was even more painful for the instructor when the kids parents came up to him and asked him why a black belt died so easily in a fight.

I don't have any answers and I don't believe that knife defence/fighting training is an answer either, especially if an attack comes out of the blue.

Another disturbing trend I note is the rapid progression of knife culture from the city to the country. It's sad to think that you can't walk down the main street of a country town after dark without risking getting stabbed.

[slamdunc]

As an example, we lost two guys in a knife fight a couple of years ago, so knife defence and knife fighting were added to the curriculum.

That is why I removed the majority of knife defense techniques from the thing I teach now; I know from experience that most of that **** doesn't work. If a knife-fighter knows what he is doing, he is tactical and unpredictable, if he doesn't know what he's doing, he is haphazard and dangerous.

There are tactics that one can use to minimize the effectiveness of a knife fighter, but I won't delude myself into thinking I can go toe-to-toe with a knife fighter.

I also ****-canned the forms and added weapon retention for the same reasons.

[JohnSambell]

Like I said, I also disagree with knife defence/fight training being on the curriculum. You're gonna get cut no matter what you do. Just don't be there - that's the best defence.

[battlefields]

Why would you train in a gym where young dudes come in on Monday with glory stories of their weekend drunken antics? If I heard some young douche talking himself up, I'd tell 'em straight, "you're a fucking idiot" and if the instructor disagreed he'd be viewing my middle finger as I walked out the door.

[JohnSambell]

You assumptions are invalid. It is not our 'dudes' who are drunk on the weekend (except for me maybe, but that's at home). To clarify, occasionally, people from our gym will be attacked/assaulted while out at night by drunks/gangs/junkies etc. It is valuable to know how they are attacked; what sort of techniques/weapons are involved; number of people, etc, etc.

I train with police officers and security workers. They are not 'douches'. They have no glory stories. The choose to train where they do because they find it works for them.