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  1. Necroyunus is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2008 11:27am


     Style: BJJ and MT at the moment

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Lyoto Machida and Shotokan

    Well everyone must be knowing about him.

    He is going with the records 12-0-0 and we know that he does shotokan.(of course he also does BJJ)

    Some people describe him as "the true shotokan practitioner" they say "yes this is shotokan! Shotokan pride" vs vs all the happy talking you can hear

    But other people say that "he fights boring" and not that good etc etc.

    What I want to say is.We must accept that shotokan is crappy (maybe its a good base but not enough) because of point contact,katas,forms etc.

    But if we think that a shotokan practitioner tries it hard,spars with contact(and in a reasonable way),doesn't emphasis so much on kata's and crosstrains in a grappling art like BJJ, then shotokan can be useful?
    I know I counted lots of things but they are all because of mcdojoism in my opinion.And the desire of olympics.They try hard on softening karate to put it on olympics.

    You may say that the opposite hand is on belt,very deep stances that you can't move etc.

    But from what I know in my country all instructors say that "you can't fight like this.(meaning kihon general technique workout) but practicing in this deep stances and traditional ways(he means unrealistic ways) you can fight better in normal stances"
    so they mean practice it in hard way so you can use it in normal situation.
    So while they spar they dont use deep stances,guards are in more reasonable etc.
    (This completely changes when someone trains for medals not learning how to fight)


    For myself when I want to train striking I go to my shotokan karate class (which has no cost for me) and I train with students.And when the training ends I train on sandbag (I especially say "sand"bag cuz its completely filled with sand only :S there are even stones on the bottom you can feel them) cuz it's my only choice right now.(No I cant go another place and pay to it.this is free for me and I am not rich.But I will go to another country maybe in 6 months and I will be able to train MMA there I think)

    So for a limited time If I want to continue striking training I have to go there.
    It is the only choice but I convince my friends to spar in contact,I dont block unrealistic(no gedan barais for low kicks I mean),and I also watch muay thai videos to improve myself.
    But it doesn't change that it is a hybrid MT/shotokan style and doesn't look like both of them lol


    Why I tell all of this is,I always tought if I train hard and get rid of all bad habits of shotokan I could be a good striker (I will train MMA later but no not now,not while in Turkey lol there is already no places to go too.Dont search it there isnt :) )
    And Lyoto gave me some hope about it.

    So I want to get your ideas about all this situation?

    Is Lyoto Machida a good fighter?
    Is he a shotokan doer without mcdojoism and good practice, or he only uses one or two similar techniques to it and all other is different?
    Can shotokan (no other karate styles only shotokan) can be effective if practiced that way(and with crosstrain),or it becomes a different styles when you remove "the ugly" or is it completely useless?

    Thanx from now on.(and sorry for crappy english)
  2. WhiteShark is offline
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    1% Shark is better than you.

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2008 1:44pm

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    To me he is no different than GSP being a Kyokushin guy. Except GSP didn't have to modify Kyokushin training to make it hard.
  3. Scott Larson is offline
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    Gold Summit Martial Arts Institute

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2008 1:57pm


     Style: Ba Zheng Dao Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you want to fight with MMA rules, fight like an MMA practitioner. I haven't seen a lot of Machida, but if he's boring, its probably because he plays it safe, and doesn't have a lot of power. Two habits that probably come from point sparring. Don't train the things that aren't important to you.
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  4. Petter is offline

    12th level logic wielder

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2008 2:01pm


     Style: BJJ, judo, rapier

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    On an aside, as a former practitioner of Shotokan karate (however poor), I find it interesting rather to look at Machida and ask myself what about his style actually reminds me of Shotokan. (It's been said, after all, that any striking art, once trained in an alive manner, ends up looking rather like kickboxing.)

    My answer, for what it is worth, is that which some call "boring" and I call "tactical and rather interesting"; his tendency (in the matches of his that I've seen) to hang back and wait, then go for a more decisive attack, rather than fighting a war of attrition. This reminds me of the style of 'sparring' I did, and even to a degree of the sort of tactics that work in point sparring (which we did very little of), where you cannot afford to exchange blows -- even if yours are better, the point goes to the one who landed first. I think it's interesting to see that it seems to work, although it's worth keeping in mind that all we know is that it can work if you're Machida; whether or not it would work for others remains to be seen.

    I know that doesn't really answer your question, but I personally think it's an interesting question to consider, and I clearly lack the skill or experience at...well, anything fighting-related at all, really, to do any better.
  5. Nathan McScary is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2008 2:03pm


     Style: Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Is Lyoto Machida a good fighter?

    Yes.


    Is he a shotokan doer without mcdojoism

    Yes.


    Can shotokan can be effective if practiced that way

    Yes.
  6. Vince Tortelli is offline

    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2008 2:04pm

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hui_Xiu
    If you want to fight with MMA rules, fight like an MMA practitioner. I haven't seen a lot of Machida, but if he's boring, its probably because YOU NEED TO GO BACK TO WATCHNG TOUGHMAN
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGPHby4KAGY
  7. shironinja is offline
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    shadow weight

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2008 2:06pm

    supporting member
     Style: yes

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't find him boring to watch. However I do feel that despite a ton of people who have taken shotokan he is only one of a few deviations from the overall pattern of Shotokan-sucking.
    Now or never.
  8. Goju - Joe is offline
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    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2008 2:10pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Improv comedy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    2 things about Karate (gross simplifications and generalization alert)

    Karate is about getting in getting your hit and getting out

    Karate striking VS Muay thai can be summed up as speed VS power - i.e. chambered kicks VS Thai kicks (this is a simplification and not 100% true but for the sake of my point bare with me)

    Now in MMA with little itty bitty gloves accuracy and speed can be used quite effectively, which is what Machida does.

    he gets in, gets his hits and gets out, wearing down and breaking his opponents will until he can take them down and finish them or out point them.

    I like Machida and don't find him boring, but what he needs to do is work on his Muay Thai more so he can wear them down with karate and finish them off with Muay Thai for some exciting knock outs.
  9. sempaiman is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2008 2:16pm


     Style: Mixed-Up Martial Arts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    How can you say he is Shotokan when he punches like a boxer and grapples like a Jiu Jitsu guy. I think the Karate guys are trying to use him as some moral justifcation for their MA practice. It don't matter what your foundation is, once you start cross training in other arts (i.e. boxing, jiujitsu, Muay Thai, etc.) your ara MMA.
  10. Shuma-Gorath is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/05/2008 2:40pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ - Homeland Security

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Soju - Joe
    I like Machida and don't find him boring, but what he needs to do is work on his Muay Thai more so he can wear them down with karate and finish them off with Muay Thai for some exciting knock outs.
    What button combo does he press to switch styles? :icon_roll

    Hitting hard is a function of timing, distance and footwork, not style. Everyone seems to forget that Machida finished Rich Franklin and one of this Jungle Fight opponents too.

    Quote Originally Posted by sempaiman
    How can you say he is Shotokan when he punches like a boxer and grapples like a Jiu Jitsu guy.
    I'll give you that Boxing has hooks and Shotokan does not, but you need to look beyond his arms.
    Last edited by Shuma-Gorath; 2/05/2008 2:48pm at .
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