The reason Frank Mir lost!

[edtang]

We are told that BJJ and Martial Arts in general give the "smaller/weaker" person the ability to defend themselves against the "bigger/stronger" attacker.

"We?"

Seriously?

This myth was busted years ago. I personally thought the final nail in the coffin was Hughes / Gracie.

[ronaldk]

We are told that BJJ and Martial Arts in general give the "smaller/weaker" person the ability to defend themselves against the "bigger/stronger" attacker.

this isn't an 80s karate movie.

However, this does not seem to be what is seen lately in the MMA world. Brock beat Couture, GSP beat Penn, Brock beats Mir. It seems lately that the stronger more athletically superior fighters are winning.

One could make the statement that at some point physics makes the argument an easy one in favor of the "bigger/stronger." But if that is the case where is the tipping point?

it's pretty obvious if a technique works well when applied from a smaller person, when applied the same way, with MORE POWER, it will be... more powerful? i wonder how it is possible that the idea of being big will somehow make you slow and useless in martial arts became generally accepted.

Well, Couture is no BJJ phenom, let's establish that first off. Also, his loss was due to getting clocked while standing, so his fight with Brock isn't really a good example of how "experience in BJJ doesn't always save you".

where he says BJJ, i'll look at movement from your back, being able to escape, etc. well, couture may not be a BJJ player, but Brock wasn't able to do much of all on the ground to him. Couture grappled Jacare to a draw once, so i think his performance does weigh in on the "technicality vs. size" thing. so Brock being WAY larger than Randy, yet not being able to hold him down says something about technique.

[Gabetuno]

where he says BJJ, i'll look at movement from your back, being able to escape, etc. well, couture may not be a BJJ player, but Brock wasn't able to do much of all on the ground to him. Couture grappled Jacare to a draw once, so i think his performance does weigh in on the "technicality vs. size" thing. so Brock being WAY larger than Randy, yet not being able to hold him down says something about technique.

Good Jiu-Jitsu is not limited to fighting off your back, use escapes, sweeps, and other things like that. I see plenty of wrestler's who can hold a BJJ player on his back, but can't pass guard, or do anything short of rabbit punch with their head down. A good Jiu-Jitseiro should be able to pass, hold effectively in side control, reign damage down/threaten with submissions, and advance the position.

Couture grappled Jacare to a draw, true, but just once, and using a lot of stalling from top half-guard. I'm not saying Couture isn't talented, that much isn't even a question, but he doesn't grapple like a BJJ guy. He grapples like a wrestler. I've got a background in both, so I'm pretty comfortable in that assertion.

As to your point that I highlighted, you're absolutely right. But what it really says, more than anything, is that Olympic-alternat-quality wrestling adapted for the cage over a 20 year career is more effective for MMA fights than NCAA-champ-quality wrestling adapted over 4 fights. To me, this is both obvious, and also not worth mentioning.

[theotherserge]

See the "Stephen Kesting on Lesnar/Mir" thread in the Advanced Grappling subforum.

Noted^ Thank you. *sigh of relief*

[Panamaican]

I just wanted to say that I've been reading threads on the same subject over on sherdog and I'm amazed just how much more informative the dicussions are here. But I guess that's why I don't have an account there.

[meataxe]

I get this all the time. If I take someone down it's because I'm "stronger than them." If I take down someone noticeably stronger than me it's because Yaweh intervened. People seem to assume takedowns and good top control come from nothing more than muscles and gravity.

Curiously, it seems that people who practice arts which claim to be able to "use your opponent's strength against him" are the ones who complain the most about people using strength.

[Kintanon]

I've explained this to a few people and will explain it here for the benefit of Mr. Brinn:

Technique is what a smaller/weaker person can use to make up for the natural disadvantage they have against a larger and stronger opponent. The bigger the size/strength difference the more technique/experience required to overcome that gap.
Now, once the bigger person has some technical ability to go with their size it becomes a force multiplier so the amount of skill required for the smaller person to win goes up even more.

The idea that Skill >> Strength is wrong. Skill is a REPLACEMENT for strength. Attribute + Ability = Effectiveness. It's always best to have as much of both as possible.

[Jim Londos]

Mir lost because he got his face pounded to mush

[Hesperus]

The bigger the size/strength difference the more technique/experience required to overcome that gap.

It's ex-po-nen-shul, y'all.

[datdamnmachine]

While you still need practice and some degree of technique to do it, I think it requires less skill to lay on someone and avoid being subbed from the bottom than it does for the guy underneath to submit you, particularly when you're not wearing a gi and are allowed to punch them in the face.

Just gem seems to have gotten lost and bears repeating.

Remember the early UFC's were those guys with a little bit of BJJ training were defending submissions left and right?

The other thread on this in the Grappling forum is a better analysis but the fact is, there were A LOT of mistakes made:

1) Mir locking his hips to Brock's; Brock can't pass, but Mir can't be offensive cause both their hips are immobile.

2) There are three paths you can take when fighting from the bottom, sweep, submit, reset (go to your knees and/or stand up).

3) Get off your flat back! A great little SBG nugget. Mir was flat on his back; his hips were flat as well. Very, very bad when fighting from the bottom in any Guard position, something the worse white belts and even the best black belts seem to forget (will answer another question about wrestlers using strength and other grapplers not using this example).

4) It IS easier to defend from the top then from the bottom. It's that whole gravity and body weight thing. They help quite a bit. They especially help when your opponent is doing most of the work for you by laying flat on their back and wielding their hips to you so they can't move themselves. Doesn't take much if your opponent does the work for you.

5) Mir turned away from Brock, against the cage, while still having his hips LOCKED with Brock's. Where are you going to go while pressed against the cage AND with your hips attached to your opponent.

Now, for the fact that people say that wrestlers use strength for their takedowns and the BJJ/Judo/Technique crowd use technique. Here is my opinion on the matter (remember what I wrote in # 3). One has to do with the cardio conditioning programs that wrestlers get indoctrinated into. Because of that emphasis, there are a lot of participants who use this as an opportunity to use strength training to cover up any holes in their technique.

HOWEVER, I see that with BJJ/Judo/Technique players as well. You know the guy. The one who, after a year, even though you have 3-5 years is a monster because whatever he doesn't have in technique, he uses strength, size, other physical attributes to cover those weaknesses up. Hell, I've seen quite a few guys who will spend more time in the gym using that to sure up technique deficiencies then getting on the mats and training. Why? Quick fix. Works faster. The problem? Won't help in the long run as people get better. Will actually end up becoming a handicap. Age also gets in the way of physical attributes.

Keep in mind, Mir is on the big boy side of the scale when it comes to BJJ. He probably hasn't spent a considerable a time working off his back against much bigger and stronger guys than that larger majority of BJJ practitioners who are not his size. This all (finally) chains into the fact that while on his back, he was flat, hips immobile. This was not the best technique. High level BJJ guys can sometimes get away with sloppy technique if the other guy isn't as good as they are. See the Roger Gracie vs Ron Watterman fight as an example. Everyone knows you are not suppose to cross your legs during a Guard armbar yet Roger did it and won.

When the person is much larger than you, learning at an advanced rate, stronger, faster, and has great technique, than if you are going to rely on your technique then your technique has to be absolutely, positively, without any room for error, CRISP!