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  1. G-Off is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/15/2009 8:57pm


     Style: Ronin wannabe

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Some of the replies to this thread mirror my thoughts exactly. It looked to me like Mir was focusing entirely on controlling posture, as if he believed that would stop any effective GnP. He failed to account for Lesnar's extreme strength in short distance punching.

    I think with enough training with heavier partners, he could've more effectively used his hips in half guard to be offensive.

    I think the lesson is, there is no such thing as defense with Lesnar on top of you. You have to stay on offense, or he's gonna smash you.
  2. datdamnmachine is offline
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    Jiu Jitsu - Sometimes passing just isn't an option.

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    Posted On:
    7/16/2009 12:40am

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     Style: BJJ, Unauthorized Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost View Post
    Nogueira is practically a living exception to all kinds of rules given his insane ability and willingness to endure punishment in order to secure a submission.

    Very few people have the skill and the physical attributes required to get away with that, and it remains to be seen if Nogueira could weather a similar storm from Lesnar himself.

    Let's frame it this way: if I were coaching I'd tell my fighters to recover full guard in 99 out of 100 situations like that. The 100th would be if I were (for some bizarro-world reason) coaching someone of Marcelo Garcia's talent and the guy he was fighting was a.) his size or smaller, and/or b.) not as strong or skilled on the ground.
    Well, I believe there are others who have made the half-guard effective in MMA. I will concede that what you say is true but it is true to any type of fighting you do from the bottom. If you are not throwing up sweep, submissions, or trying to keep back to your feet the whole time you are on the bottom (Guard, Half Guard, whatever Guard) then you WILL eventually get owned from there. Being on the bottom is not the position you "hold on for dear life".


    Quote Originally Posted by G-Off View Post
    Some of the replies to this thread mirror my thoughts exactly. It looked to me like Mir was focusing entirely on controlling posture, as if he believed that would stop any effective GnP. He failed to account for Lesnar's extreme strength in short distance punching.

    I think with enough training with heavier partners, he could've more effectively used his hips in half guard to be offensive.

    I think the lesson is, there is no such thing as defense with Lesnar on top of you. You have to stay on offense, or he's gonna smash you.
    I think a lot of it also has to do with how the Half Guard is taught. Many BJJ schools consider it to be an "Advanced Postion". As such, it is usually taught at the higher levels. There is a growing movement (won't say pioneered by Eddie Bravo but it was brought to the forefront by him, at least) for teaching the Half Guard at the white belt levels and teaching A LOT of it. Honestly, I feel that is the best way because you are probably going to spend more time in the Half Guard then in the closed or Open Guard. I also feel it will help your Guard in general improve because if you have a good Half Guard, you are more willing to open up your regular Guard game because you know you can default to Half Guard if required.

    In the end, I think the mistake made in that match was one that many BJJ players and grapplers in general have made regarding the Half Guard and that is treating it as a defensive position instead of an offensive one.
  3. PointyShinyBurn is offline
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    Gnarly King of Half-Guard

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    Posted On:
    7/16/2009 8:17am

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wilson Reis, Demian Maia and Vitor Ribeiro are some other guys who sweep effectively from the half-guard in MMA.

    Big Nog himself actually takes far, far fewer shots sweeping from the half-guard than he does playing full.
  4. theotherserge is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/16/2009 1:54pm

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     Style: sambo/crossfit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Cesar View Post
    Great thread
    Yes^, thank God.

    I haven't looked into it, but whyTF was Frank so beat up? I know that he&Franklin trained together pretty hard (ring any bells?) but-dumbass-the fight is with Brock. Between a hemotoma on his head and the taped up knee and just his slow movement, Mir looked really off.

    He also seemed as unprepared for how the fight would go as Evans was vs Machida. The contrast is pretty interesting to me: it has so much more to do with how you've prepared than how skilled you are.

    After looking at Mir pre round 2, beatup and smiling, I thought that his problem is that he's basically stupid. It's depressing to think of how much effort it takes to show up at a fight looking roughed-up and unable to answer the opponent you've supposedly been preparing for...
    Many things we do naturally become difficult only when we try to make them intellectual subjects. It is possible to know so much about a subject that you become totally ignorant.
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  5. Gabetuno is offline
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    Woah. Alex Van Halen got huge.

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    Posted On:
    7/16/2009 2:27pm

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     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In my opinion, Frank looked sharp on his feet, throwing hands and strikes, and sloppy on the ground.

    I think half guard is overused in MMA, and especially disadvantageous against a bigger opponent. For whatever reason, people don't transition to butterfly or foot on hip from there, which is really how you can alleviate some of your opponents punching power. The way Mir played his half in this fight I think showed a weakness in his game, rather than a strength in Brock's. I mean, anybody decently sized in that division with a knowledge of half guard should have been able to stop Frank's attempts at sweeps and subs, which in this fight, were not only few and far between, but just kinda lame in general.

    Brock did the right things and finished the fight strong, but I think in the few minutes that the action was standing, Lesnar gave away what seems to be a suspect chin, and a very easily countered dump-truck of a straight right hand. I anticipate his next loss will be on the feet.

    As for Mir, his gameplan was not only bad, but his execution of techniques made me think that he's in the top 10 heavyweights more for lack of heavyweights than for credit to his skill. It seems he only catches those who don't know much about the ground, and everyone else pummels him (i.e. Lesnar, Vera).


    Oh, and Mir has never had much for takedown D, and I think that showed in this fight.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcastro
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  6. Fighting Cephalopod is offline
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    Submitting 1d6 Investigators per round

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    Posted On:
    7/17/2009 2:37pm

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     Style: ZHOO ZHITSU

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost View Post
    The key point to take away from here is that bottom half-guard is not an offensive position in MMA unless there's just a vast skill and/or attribute gap.
    Nogueira repeatedly swept Werdum from the half guard, without taking significant punches while doing so, and if there's any skill and/or attribute gap in that match you'd expect it to be on the side of Werdum, who is larger than Nog and has better pure grappling credentials.
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  7. jnp is offline
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    Titanium laced beauty

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    Posted On:
    7/17/2009 8:23pm

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     Style: BJJ, wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
  8. laevus is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2009 4:17pm

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     Style: Sambo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabetuno View Post
    Oh, and Mir has never had much for takedown D, and I think that showed in this fight.
    True.
    Reminds me of one of the biggest mysteries in all of MMA to me: why Tim Sylvia immediately shot for a double-leg takedown against Mir.

    I do not, and probably will never understand that move.

    As for whether Lesnar has a suspect chin, you don't need a suspect chin to be staggered. It looked like a solid knee, and Lesnar looked much more solid than Velasquez did against Kongo. Getting wobbled certainly proved Lesnar isn't Mark Hunt or anything, but the only question left in my mind regarding Lesnar is what his game looks like from his back, since eventually someone will put him there.

    He's got endurance.
    He's got ground control.
    He's got decent sub defense.
    Standing striking is suspect, but powerful.
    Ground and pound is obviously there.

    Damn, I hate that guy.
  9. Hesperus is offline
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    it's all vanity

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2009 4:10am

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     Style: Kano-Gracie

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabetuno View Post
    Oh, and Mir has never had much for takedown D, and I think that showed in this fight.
    Takedown D? He dove for a kneebar and tried to counter a single leg with a flying knee. He did Brock's job for him within the first forty seconds of both rounds.
  10. bunkerdnoi is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2009 3:05pm


     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by datdamnmachine View Post

    I have a copy of Stephen's Iphone app. He is a true student of the craft. This is a great breakdown.
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