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  1. laevus is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/14/2009 1:16pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No it's not cheating (hence why weigh ins are 24 hours before, there's no other reason), no it's not immoral (unlike steroids, the 'everyone is doing it' argument actually applies because it's treated as simply another legal aspect of fight preparation), and like it or not the practice of cutting isn't going anywhere at this point, because its become so widely accepted.

    Can you imagine the clusterf*ck if UFC tried to go day-of? The only champion who MIGHT still have his belt would be Machida.

    To be honest, this whole question seems like a little-guy argument. It's not as if the guys cutting weight are working any less hard than the people who don't like it, and it's not as if the bigger man always wins in this sport.
  2. madrigan is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/14/2009 1:44pm


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by laevus View Post
    Can you imagine the clusterf*ck if UFC tried to go day-of? The only champion who MIGHT still have his belt would be Machida.

    To be honest, this whole question seems like a little-guy argument. It's not as if the guys cutting weight are working any less hard than the people who don't like it, and it's not as if the bigger man always wins in this sport.
    I don't think the UFC should have day-of weigh-ins because it would be dangerous, given that the fighters would cut weight anyway, but speculating that Lyoto Machida might be the only legitimate champion in the UFC isn't much of an argument in favor of weight cutting.

    A "little-guy" argument? So, people only pose questions out of self-interest, or to justify an inadequacy? Really? I like to see fair, competitive matches. Those are the best matches and they're best for the sport. If a guy goes into a match at a higher weight than allowed for the division, this makes the match less fair and less competitive -- unless his opponent happens to be proportionately over weight, which is hardly guaranteed.

    A guy who comes in heavier than the division allows is working less hard -- during the match. He's taking advantage of a loophole in order to fight, he hopes, a much smaller opponent. The bigger man doesn't always win, but if it didn't matter there wouldn't be weight divisions at all.

    The whole practice seems dishonest and dishonorable as well as dangerous for the fighters themselves. It's just the kind of thing that narrows the fan base for MMA as a whole.
  3. HappyOldGuy is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/14/2009 1:46pm


     Style: Rehab Fu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    no, you DIE. One of the places water gets cut is from around the brain. This is one of the reasons there were lots of deaths in boxing a while ago. They weighed in day of, but guys still cut. So they got more brain damage from lack of water around the brain.

    yes you could argue it's the fighters fault, but what do you think happens to the sport when dumbasses start dying in the cage because they still cut weight and get beaten to death.
    There are health arguments both ways though. The level of cutting some of these guys do is really bad for your body. to the point of death in some cases. And there are steps you can take to minimize the degree of cutting (you'll never completely get rid of it) that are used in HS and collegiate wrestling and other sports.

    The main reason you won't see it in Pro sports any time soon is because that extra day minimizes the chance that the main event doesn't make weight and blow your highly hyped championship fight.
  4. laevus is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/14/2009 3:50pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by madrigan View Post
    I don't think the UFC should have day-of weigh-ins because it would be dangerous, given that the fighters would cut weight anyway, but speculating that Lyoto Machida might be the only legitimate champion in the UFC isn't much of an argument in favor of weight cutting.

    A "little-guy" argument? So, people only pose questions out of self-interest, or to justify an inadequacy? Really? I like to see fair, competitive matches. Those are the best matches and they're best for the sport. If a guy goes into a match at a higher weight than allowed for the division, this makes the match less fair and less competitive -- unless his opponent happens to be proportionately over weight, which is hardly guaranteed.
    Point 1: not saying Machida still being champ is bad, I'm trying to point out how drastic a reshuffling of the belts, and divisions it would be. Therefore, not gonna happen.

    Point 2: Everyone cuts, with the exception of some heavyweights. Pretending that people who cut weight aren't working hard to do it properly seems a bit naiive, in my humble opinion. In the end, some people will be taller, some people will be stronger, and some people will be fasterl; therefore you will never have a perfectly fair fight measuring pure skill. Therefore, I think that anyone who goes the extra mile to cut down, and can still pull it off doesnt deserve to be called a cheater, even by keyboard warriors online (Not calling you one of these, btw, just to illustrate a vehement 'NO' to the OP's question)

    Edit to add: I dont consider modern MMA fights to be unfair, even if it is in the same weight class with one fighter larger than the other. Uneven, perhaps, but not unfair.
    Last edited by laevus; 7/14/2009 4:12pm at .
  5. madrigan is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/14/2009 5:56pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by laevus View Post
    Point 2: Everyone cuts, with the exception of some heavyweights. Pretending that people who cut weight aren't working hard to do it properly seems a bit naiive, in my humble opinion. In the end, some people will be taller, some people will be stronger, and some people will be fasterl; therefore you will never have a perfectly fair fight measuring pure skill. Therefore, I think that anyone who goes the extra mile to cut down, and can still pull it off doesnt deserve to be called a cheater, even by keyboard warriors online (Not calling you one of these, btw, just to illustrate a vehement 'NO' to the OP's question)

    Edit to add: I dont consider modern MMA fights to be unfair, even if it is in the same weight class with one fighter larger than the other. Uneven, perhaps, but not unfair.
    If I was claiming any expertise in this matter, it would be fair to call me a keyboard warrior (which you didn't). I'm not pretending to be a cage fighter or a badass, or even an actual martial artist of any kind at this point. I'm just observing the situation and arguing for my position. People can have informed, reasoned opinions on things they don't have first hand experience with -- otherwise we couldn't criticize politicians or coaches! I am speaking here as a fan, and I think that fans have a stake in the functioning of the sport just as the fighters, trainers, promoters, and officials do.

    Anyway, I understand that cutting weight and then being able to fight competently the day after the weigh-in is fucking hard and takes discipline and effort. What we disagree about is whether these facts offset, in an ethical or competitive sense, the advantage weight cutting can give a fighter in a actual match. It's obvious that there are unavoidable physical differences among fighters, but there are weight classes so that the fights are fair and competitive despite this fact. The practice of weight cutting subverts this very important aspect of MMA rulemaking.

    You're right, though, that cutting weight isn't cheating since there's no rule against it, as others have said. I do think it is bad for the fighters and for the sport, and I would support a rule that actually made it into cheating.
  6. CannibalCrowley is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/14/2009 8:07pm


     Style: Starting Strength

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by madrigan View Post
    Anyway, I understand that cutting weight and then being able to fight competently the day after the weigh-in is fucking hard and takes discipline and effort. What we disagree about is whether these facts offset, in an ethical or competitive sense, the advantage weight cutting can give a fighter in a actual match. It's obvious that there are unavoidable physical differences among fighters, but there are weight classes so that the fights are fair and competitive despite this fact. The practice of weight cutting subverts this very important aspect of MMA rulemaking.
    It doesn't subvert anything, it adds different aspects. There's strategy in deciding whether or not to cut, how much to cut, how to go about doing it, how to recuperate, and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by madrigan View Post
    You're right, though, that cutting weight isn't cheating since there's no rule against it, as others have said. I do think it is bad for the fighters and for the sport, and I would support a rule that actually made it into cheating.
    The only way to enforce such a rule would be to move the weigh ins much closer to the fight, which would raise the concerns mentioned earlier in the thread.
  7. Happy Panda is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/14/2009 10:33pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by madrigan View Post
    It's just the kind of thing that narrows the fan base for MMA as a whole.
    I really doubt it. I don't understand why anyone who doesn't fight would care about this at all.
  8. TheLordHumungus is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/15/2009 1:49am


     Style: Wrestling, Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As a former heavyweight wrestler and current heavyweight Judoka, this doesn't affect me. I've never had to cut weight. At my weight class, any weight you can gain in one day isn't likely to change the outcome of the match. 20 lbs more or less never meant **** to me, it doesn't make you stronger, faster, or more skilled. Also, almost every comp I've participated in has had 'day of' weigh ins.

    But having been a wrestler, I certainly don't think that cutting weight is immoral. It's such an accepted facet of combat sports that it's silly to whine about it. Not to mention that I've gotten my ass kicked by very skilled guys more than two weight classes lower than me.
  9. Eddie Hardon is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/15/2009 6:11am


     Style: Trad Ju Jitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    no, you DIE. One of the places water gets cut is from around the brain. This is one of the reasons there were lots of deaths in boxing a while ago. They weighed in day of, but guys still cut. So they got more brain damage from lack of water around the brain.

    yes you could argue it's the fighters fault, but what do you think happens to the sport when dumbasses start dying in the cage because they still cut weight and get beaten to death.
    The Truth. If Memory serves, there's statue of Bradley Price, who died owing to this. It might be outside the Peacock Gym, but it's certainly here in London.
  10. gzk is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/15/2009 6:56am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As others have said, it's not cheating, because it's not against the rules. It does, however, make a bit of a mockery of the idea of weight limits.

    I wonder if fighters could be weighed soon enough after accepting the fight, and required to be no more than y pounds over the limit, that they couldn't cut for that weigh-in, and be required to maintain that weight with periodic checks.

    Is there really any way to do it and ensure fighters won't just keep subjecting their bodies to more and more torture to make the weight they want to?
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