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  1. #31
    1point2's Avatar
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    These are some wicked good responses, not just because the videos are so frikkin sweet, but because I get expert commentary on what I'm seeing, and why it's impressive or interesting. Very very nice.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    I was delving into judo tachi-waza/nage-waza elitism and alluding to "illegal entries to groundwork" that are basically half-hearted sacrifice throws, including guard-pull tomoenages, drop seoinages that are intended to start a turtle and run up the clock, etc.

    Ahhh I see. I have never seen this before...even within the lower ranks. (the drop seoi for the sake of turtle to stall). I don't know...but it seems like an insanely stupid thing to do. There are much better ways of stalling than exposing your back when you don't need to.


    With that being said....the vids are interesting. I wouldnt mind dabbling in SJ if their was a school in Maryland close to DC or Bmore. I disagree about the rule set making much of a difference in this case. It seems that SJ in these vids places too much emphasis on muscling your opponent into position.

    Just from watching the videos I would say that most of these guys would do well up to about Yonkyu(Blue belt) as far as stand up goes in a Judo shiai but would get raped by anyone of higher rank/experience....
    Last edited by OSPF; 7/20/2009 1:28pm at . Reason: edit is better.

  3. #33
    Jack Rusher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OSPF View Post
    I wouldnt mind dabbling in SJ if their was a school in Maryland close to DC or Bmore.
    Nick Masi <nickmasi at gmail dot com> teaches at these locations in VA:

    US Wushu Academy (at Loehmann’s Plaza Shopping Center)
    7251 Arlington Blvd
    Falls Church, VA 22042
    Phone: (703) 698-8182

    White Birch Traditional Martial Arts
    46000 Old Ox Rd. #104
    Sterling, VA 20166
    Phone: (703) 861-3954

    ... write us a review if you drop in on a class or two.

    Quote Originally Posted by OSPF View Post
    I would say that most of these guys would do well up to about Yonkyu(Blue belt) as far as stand up goes in a Judo shiai but would get raped by anyone of higher rank/experience...
    These are mostly pretty junior guys, so I largely agree. That said, the best players are super tough -- Yuan Zumou was a national level shuaijiao and Greco-Roman wrestling champion, for instance -- and many of the Chinese and Mongolian Olympic judoka come from an SJ background. Ultimately, it would make a big difference whether the match was conducted wearing a judogi, da lian (shuaijiao jacket) or t-shirt, and which rules were in effect.
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4

  4. #34

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    Thanks Jack.
    I will contact the school and see if I can get some mat time.
    If I make my down there I will report back.

  5. #35
    solves problems with violence supporting member
    Ming Loyalist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OSPF View Post
    Just from watching the videos I would say that most of these guys would do well up to about Yonkyu(Blue belt) as far as stand up goes in a Judo shiai but would get raped by anyone of higher rank/experience....
    i hope you weren't talking about the video of the guy i train with, cause you would be very *very* wrong.

    he regularly used to cross train at oishi sensei's club, and didn't get "raped" there, where the general level of experience is quite high.

    if you weren't talking about his video you need to learn to be *much* more specific with your comments.
    "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
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  6. #36
    Jack Rusher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist View Post
    i hope you weren't talking about the video of the guy i train with, cause you would be very *very* wrong.
    Looking back at that same post, the video of the Taizhou tournament and the one from the French nationals are both pretty good, though the matches are even enough to look ungraceful. The fighter in blue in the French video is Hadrien Lesueur, one of Jean-Luc Lesueur's guys. Lesueur trained with Wang Wenyong in China. Wang's the old guy in silk pajamas in this video:

    YouTube - Shuai Jiao

    ... they train taiji too. Hadrien Lesueur won first place in the 70kg shuaijiao and open weight tui shou divisions of the 2008 European kuoshu championships.

    The red fighter in that same French video is one of Wang Zhihong's students. He's another shuaijiao + taiji guy who knows what the bow and arrow stance is really for:



    ... and the horse-riding stance as well:


    (phoenix-eagle variation)

    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2
    Are there non-taiji, non-shuaijiao Chinese grappling styles?
    There's shuaijiao in most CMA, and I'd argue that none of the Chinese boxing systems make much sense without a background in it. One system particularly known for throwing is bagua, the best exponent of which I know is Luo De Xiu (one of Tim Cartmell's main instructors):

    YouTube - Luo De Xiu Snake Throw
    (He tossed me like a ragdoll the first time I met him)
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4

  7. #37
    1point2's Avatar
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    I've avoided posting these because while they're CMA-originated, they're from Mr. Cartmell, who teaches primarily MMA these days. Plus, they weren't "full contact" and didn't match my original view of "CMA grappling has to look like Greco," which Rivington dispelled in my mind. Plus, I try not to nutride the guy constantly, because it would get old really quick.

    I like this light, no-gi push-hands/randori. The student puts the origin of the application into the video in most cases.

    YouTube - Light sparring at Shen Wu
    YouTube - Chin Na / Aikido technique
    YouTube - Sun Style BaGua Zhang application from the 'Lion' form
    YouTube - Combat Bagua Throw

    These videos were a contributing factor in me trying to change my training to include both the traditional and the modern, and realizing that aliveness wasn't about MMA or the age of techniques, but about applicability and practice. I saw this stuff and said "why can't I train like that?"

    Fun fact: the guy who pulls off the Aikido wristlock apparently came into Cartmell's school very proficient in "TMA"; not sure if it's JJJ or something else. Now he's got the compliant wristy-twisty stuff, plus standup-clinch-ground. Can you say, motivation for 1.2?
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates

  8. #38
    Jack Rusher's Avatar
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    More non-SJ/non-TJQ throwing. Xingyi crossing fist application of the Phoenix-Eagle throw we've been seeing everywhere:

    YouTube - Xing Yi -Style Takedown

    Speaking of bagua, there are some good applications (and a couple I don't like much) in this demo:

    YouTube - Ba Gua Zhang Fighting Techniques - 八卦掌打法
    (action starts with Phoenix-Eagle ~1:18)
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4

  9. #39
    1point2's Avatar
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    See, I didn't initially post the 2nd one of those because it wasn't "full contact". I'm realizing that the whole thread was misguided: a large portion of non-shuaijiao CMA standing grappling is only going to be full-contact in striking competitions that allow clinching or takedowns. That's why I've been frustrated not finding more CMA throwing-in-sparring; it's all in the san shou/etc stuff in the original thread.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates

  10. #40
    Jack Rusher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    a large portion of non-shuaijiao CMA standing grappling is only going to be full-contact in striking competitions that allow clinching or takedowns.
    That's exactly right. Shuaijiao and tuishou are the only pure grappling competition rulesets you'll find in CMA. There's standing grappling in pretty much every system, but always integrated with striking, which is why kuoshu, san shou and san da rules emphasize the combination.
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4

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