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  1. Kaizen[7] is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/28/2014 8:57pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Tom Wong WC, BJJ, Dishu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Dishuquan (Gou quan)

    Has anyone here come across any Dishuquan? Depending on some political things I'm not too familiar with the style is sometimes referred to as Gou quan, which I believe translates to Dog fist. I think referring to the art in such a way has a double meaning. In one sense, most of the moves are done on the ground from your back and as a result the people resemble dogs fighting. In another sense I think its derogatory as fighting on the ground was likely considered "bad form" in China.

    Although I can't link yet because I'm a noob, google Dishuquan and Gouquan and see what comes up. There are some videos demonstrating some really interesting take downs. Some are interesting, others are a bit silly. But Dishuquan in particular utilizes triangle chokes, arm bars, rear-naked chokes and other fairly standard grappling moves.

    Since there is so much animosity between Japan and China, it should be nigh impossible to prove who was utilizing these moves first. Although at one point I thought there was a picture with Chinese policemen doing armbars, triangles, RNC's along with some other moves that was before Kano had even begun to synergize the various Jiu Jitsu schools. I'm not saying this is a fact or anything like that, just some interesting fodder for discussion.

    There are of course, some Chinese who claim that the Fusen Ryu master paid a small fortune to a Dishuquan master to learn his ground skills. Its impossible to say for sure how true this is, especially given the aforementioned animosity between the countries. But it sure would be interesting to think that the ground skills that so drastically changed MMA originated in China where fighting on the ground was frowned upon. However, as with most CMA's there is a rather interesting origin story about Dishuquan, Shaolin monks, the White Lotus temple and the nuns there. That's right, apparently the ground methods were passed onto the nuns because it was assumed that if they were assaulted they would end up on their backs or otherwise on the ground. So to help the nuns, the ground methods were passed on to enable a smaller person to defeat a larger one using leverage and deceptive techniques (sound familiar?). Not to mention, it was assumed that many of the nuns had endured foot binding so for them to stay on their feet in a fight would prove to be most difficult.

    Something I've never fully understood though is why only the Fusen Ryu school had the newaza utilized by Kano and eventually the Gracies. You would think that perhaps some other master would have developed similar methods? It seems in most other aspects of Jiu Jitsu there was some cross pollination of methods. But not the newaza. I wonder why? Also, if I'm not mistaken, before a particular Fusen Ryu master (whose name escapes me) came to power the methods of the Fusen Ryu looked nothing like what was taught to Kano. Maybe he was just an inspired dude?

    Oh as a side note, most of the videos depicting Gouquan and Dishuquan that I've come across demonstrate take-downs almost exclusively. I do believe there is footage of more "standard" grappling but its definitely more difficult to find. Can't say why that is. Anyone who knows of the old Chinese picture showing the policemen doing the chokes and armbars, please shoot the link my way! Thanks

    P.S. If you read this whole drunken tirade, I salute you!
  2. Jack Rusher is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/29/2014 3:19pm


     Style: ti da shuai na

    4
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Nice form/drill to application Sun taiji practice from some of Cartmell's students in France:



    (BTW, why is the above post still in this thread?)
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4
  3. Jack Rusher is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/10/2014 4:27am


     Style: ti da shuai na

    5
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Another Chen ZiQiang seminar video:



    There's some criticism in the community about how rough CZQ is with the student, but the student says on a Facebook thread that he asked to go hard and knew what would be involved. Also, he said that all techniques used in this video were taught and drilled all weekend.
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4
  4. Resonance10 is offline
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    Welterweight

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    Posted On:
    11/10/2014 8:15am

    supporting member
     Style: Taiji/Hsingyi

    4
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Great stuff, didn't look too rough to me. But I guess given the low bar for 'contact' in most Taiji schools it could be perceived so. If anything the student seemed to be making it hard for himself.
  5. Ming Loyalist is offline
    Ming Loyalist's Avatar

    solves problems with violence

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    Posted On:
    11/10/2014 9:29am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo, Hung Family Boxing

    4
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Rusher View Post
    There's some criticism in the community about how rough CZQ is with the student
    complaining about that level of contact should lead to a swift exit from any real CMA "community" in my book.
    "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
    "When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
    "Without actual qualifications to be a Zen teacher, your instructor is just another roundeye raping Asian culture for a buck." - Errant108
    "Seriously, who gives a **** what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj
  6. Jack Rusher is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/10/2014 11:51am


     Style: ti da shuai na

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist View Post
    complaining about that level of contact should lead to a swift exit from any real CMA "community" in my book.
    The shoulder strike to the face at ~0:50 is something I would not normally do during a friendly tuishou session. (It has less to do with "contact level" than with expectations under that ruleset.)
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4
  7. Ming Loyalist is offline
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    solves problems with violence

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    Posted On:
    11/10/2014 9:34pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo, Hung Family Boxing

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Rusher View Post
    The shoulder strike to the face at ~0:50 is something I would not normally do during a friendly tuishou session. (It has less to do with "contact level" than with expectations under that ruleset.)
    oh yeah, that was a bit mean, and i *completely* missed it upon first watching of the vid (i guess with the sound off, it was harder to see that part and i just assumed i couldn't see the "kuzushi" being used.)

    in my experience it's not all that surprising that he threw that in there though, he had a larger stronger student really coming after him, and in those types of situations i've seen some "dirty tricks" used (my sifu certainly was never above that sort of thing.) i think that a lot of CMA instructors feel that those little dirty tricks are"teh r34l" kung fu, and i'm not entirely sure they are wrong in thinking so (at least i feel that that sort of thing is part of "teh r34l".)
    "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
    "When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
    "Without actual qualifications to be a Zen teacher, your instructor is just another roundeye raping Asian culture for a buck." - Errant108
    "Seriously, who gives a **** what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj
  8. W. Rabbit is offline
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    heaven sent and hell bent but weapons clenched and well kept

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    Posted On:
    11/10/2014 11:39pm

    supporting member
     Style: 

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Rusher View Post
    There's some criticism in the community about how rough CZQ is with the student,
    They are probably just jealous, and can't handle it and possibly can't even dish it out.

    If they don't train at LEAST this hard, well...it's park fu.
  9. Drunken Soim is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2014 9:40am


     Style: BSL; Sanda

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    They are probably just jealous, and can't handle it and possibly can't even dish it out.

    If they don't train at LEAST this hard, well...it's park fu.
    I agree, even though I'm still not used to do that kind of stuff. I'm not sure if I could take too much of that, but I sure would appreciate that level of resistance if I trained tuishou.

    (Hey, guys, I've been absent for a long time. There's been a lot of health issues with my loved ones since last year. Couldn't think much about anything else besides that and work, but I hope I can participate more from now on. Cheers.)
  10. aelred is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2014 1:59pm

    supporting member
     Style: Chen Taiji

    4
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I know Mike, the student in the CZQ video. It was setup as a demo of the techniques they worked in the seminar he hosted. The idea being to show the "output" when done full force.

    He went into the demo knowing what would happen, and volunteered to take the hits.

    That said, his attacks, while unsophisticated for the video, were not compliant.
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