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  1. mmadad is offline

    Featherweight

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    13

    Posted On:
    7/09/2009 2:09am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: BJJ/MMA/American Top Team

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I found the Hand to Hand Combat training to be non-existent when I did basic. Also, bayonet training had been shelved. Instead, we worried about how shiny our black airborne style boots were.......what bullshit and a waste of time.....

    The reasons given were that too many people were injured in both.....I thought, "just how injured will we be in actual combat.....how about dead"!

    Now, this was a long time ago.

    I think that a warrior, which is what a soldier or marine is, should be trained in ALL aspects of combat. Weapons jam (loved my AR-15, but damn if it did not jam), you could be "off duty" (in civies) or any number of countless scenarios....

    Hand to Hand Combat should not just be for confidence building. It should consist of techniques that are as simple and effective as possible.

    A Marine in Iraq ran into an insurgent on a stair well. Actually there were several insurgents that were trying to escape to the lowest floor and the Marines were trying to clear the building.

    Guess what? The Marine ended up driving his knife into the skull of the insurgent, killing him. Couldn't use his M-4 due to the short distance between he and the insurgent. That shows sometimes the combat boils down to a knife or even weaponless H2H......

    How about the US Army soldiers that were knocked out by some real scum bags that were being disrespectful to the soldiers wives (in Seattle, I believe)? Why did that happen? They did not learn or were not taught to keep distance from attackers and did NOT have their hands up at all......it was sickening to watch the video on You Tube......they had not left themselves any time to react to their attackers. And everyone around them were true cowards.

    EFFECTIVE H2H is what should be used by all of our forces.

    I understand what you are saying about ineffective techniques being taught.......

    I train in MMA/BJJ. It has some great techniques. BUT, it is not a complete system........there are no rules in real combat except to win (kill your opponent)you do grab hair, kick groins, throw people on their heads....etc.

    In WW-2 there were countless accounts of bloody H2H combat. My great uncle fought in Saipan and Okinawa.......horrible stories of fighting that few can even fathom......it is a huge mistake to think that EFFECTIVE H2H is somehow outdated or not needed.

    So, take the basics of MMA/Jiu-Jitsu. Throw out the Combat Sport rules. And actually train as realistically as possible. Add only what is simple and works. Simple defense, blocks, throws, kicks/strikes and ground work. Keep it simple and brutal.

    The Marines now require a certain belt ranking for H2H......

    Anyway, glad to see the US Army saw the light and got rid of those damn black boots......what a waste of time shining those things were....and reinstated the H2H and bayonet training.

    I guess the debate could be "what is really effective" in H2H training.....

    God bless the one poster here who is stationed in Iraq.......a big "Hooah" to all those soldiers, marines, and sailors fighting for us..... my brother in law is USMC MI stationed there.


    Keep your hands up and kick ass......:)
  2. RealManOfSteel is offline

    Registered Member

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    Jun 2009
    Posts
    302

    Posted On:
    7/09/2009 3:10am


     Style: Parkour, BJJ and Judo.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    mmadad.

    I do not really know how to respond to your post. You talk a lot about experiences in the military, without a tag. But lots of people do that so who cares right?

    Your post about WWII is completely pointless. WWII was before enough advancements in modern warfare were made to make H2H irrelevant.

    And about the marine on the stairs, it does not take dedicated training to learn to stab someone. I doubt this story is true, or that the soldier made it up. A GROUP of people charged down the stairs, and he managed to pull his knife, stab someone without losing his weapon? What about the rest of the men attacking him?

    The required ranking for MCMAP covers prettt much only basic strike points, how to get mount against a pretty much untrained opponent. The ranking system is, I believe, based on how much time spent training, and also your rank.
    Edit: You have to be a Senior or Gunnery Sgt to be blackbelt eligible.
    Also the real Marines do not say "Hooah".

    It is "Oorah"
  3. 100xobm is offline
    100xobm's Avatar

    Senior Member

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    Jul 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    1,206

    Posted On:
    7/09/2009 5:03am


     Style: BJJ, formerly Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by mmadad View Post
    I found the Hand to Hand Combat training to be non-existent when I did basic. Also, bayonet training had been shelved. Instead, we worried about how shiny our black airborne style boots were.......what bullshit and a waste of time.....

    The reasons given were that too many people were injured in both.....I thought, "just how injured will we be in actual combat.....how about dead"!

    Now, this was a long time ago.

    I think that a warrior, which is what a soldier or marine is, should be trained in ALL aspects of combat. Weapons jam (loved my AR-15, but damn if it did not jam), you could be "off duty" (in civies) or any number of countless scenarios....

    Hand to Hand Combat should not just be for confidence building. It should consist of techniques that are as simple and effective as possible.

    A Marine in Iraq ran into an insurgent on a stair well. Actually there were several insurgents that were trying to escape to the lowest floor and the Marines were trying to clear the building.

    Guess what? The Marine ended up driving his knife into the skull of the insurgent, killing him. Couldn't use his M-4 due to the short distance between he and the insurgent. That shows sometimes the combat boils down to a knife or even weaponless H2H......

    How about the US Army soldiers that were knocked out by some real scum bags that were being disrespectful to the soldiers wives (in Seattle, I believe)? Why did that happen? They did not learn or were not taught to keep distance from attackers and did NOT have their hands up at all......it was sickening to watch the video on You Tube......they had not left themselves any time to react to their attackers. And everyone around them were true cowards.

    EFFECTIVE H2H is what should be used by all of our forces.

    I understand what you are saying about ineffective techniques being taught.......

    I train in MMA/BJJ. It has some great techniques. BUT, it is not a complete system........there are no rules in real combat except to win (kill your opponent)you do grab hair, kick groins, throw people on their heads....etc.

    In WW-2 there were countless accounts of bloody H2H combat. My great uncle fought in Saipan and Okinawa.......horrible stories of fighting that few can even fathom......it is a huge mistake to think that EFFECTIVE H2H is somehow outdated or not needed.

    So, take the basics of MMA/Jiu-Jitsu. Throw out the Combat Sport rules. And actually train as realistically as possible. Add only what is simple and works. Simple defense, blocks, throws, kicks/strikes and ground work. Keep it simple and brutal.

    The Marines now require a certain belt ranking for H2H......

    Anyway, glad to see the US Army saw the light and got rid of those damn black boots......what a waste of time shining those things were....and reinstated the H2H and bayonet training.

    I guess the debate could be "what is really effective" in H2H training.....

    God bless the one poster here who is stationed in Iraq.......a big "Hooah" to all those soldiers, marines, and sailors fighting for us..... my brother in law is USMC MI stationed there.


    Keep your hands up and kick ass......:)
    No disrespect but anecdotes be anecdotes.

    I remember a story about the Maori battalion ('indigenous' of NZ) during ww2 whereby a Maori fella with a taiaha (spear thing, indigenous weapon, pretty badass actually) ended up in hand to hand with a japanese guy with a jo staff and kicked his ass.

    Nice story, but I don't believe it. Though I'd like to.

    Anyway, Jack Churchill shall redeem this thread of fail.
    http://www.cracked.com/article_17019...ike-*****.html

    Third one down.
  4. RealManOfSteel is offline

    Registered Member

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    302

    Posted On:
    7/09/2009 5:17am


     Style: Parkour, BJJ and Judo.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That site was funny. Can I, off topic, suggest that anyone posting about their gallant military exploits, first get a tag? I do not want to insult someone about being a fraud, then find out that they just haven't got a tag yet.
  5. 100xobm is offline
    100xobm's Avatar

    Senior Member

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    New Zealand
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    Posted On:
    7/09/2009 5:22am


     Style: BJJ, formerly Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by RealManOfSteel View Post
    That site was funny. Can I, off topic, suggest that anyone posting about their gallant military exploits, first get a tag? I do not want to insult someone about being a fraud, then find out that they just haven't got a tag yet.
    How about you change your style field from Nike Fu before you give you opinions on anything?
  6. Rask is offline

    Registered Member

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    Sep 2008
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    474

    Posted On:
    7/09/2009 9:46am


     Style: BJJ, Judo & Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 100xobm View Post
    How about you change your style field from Nike Fu before you give you opinions on anything?
    Oh snap.

    It's true though. RealManOfSteel, you should hurry-up and start training. :p
  7. Gidi is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Israel
    Posts
    871

    Posted On:
    7/09/2009 12:29pm


     Style: Judo (noob) & BJJ (noob)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by RealManOfSteel View Post
    That site was funny. Can I, off topic, suggest that anyone posting about their gallant military exploits, first get a tag? I do not want to insult someone about being a fraud, then find out that they just haven't got a tag yet.
    The military tag is given for 4 or more years in service, and I served the mandatory 3 years in the IDF. making me not eligible for a tag, but I still feel I know a thing or two about military life.

    Just so you'd know.
  8. Rough&Tumble is offline

    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    9

    Posted On:
    7/18/2009 2:15am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...batives_School
    http://www.moderncombatives.org/

    MAC for the U.S. Army is pretty cool and turns a lot of guys on to MMA in general.

    I feel I can at least speak for the U.S. Army as far as the goal behind Army Combatives. The Army isn't trying to create sport fighters or Ninja machines of death, we are already instruments of death, the Army utilizes Combatives as a way of fostering the Warrior mentality.

    Combatives provides physical training, useful grappling skills to fight and/or subdue if actually needed, and helps cultivate a Warrior mentality by simulating a type of "combat" enviroment that is totally safe and user friendly for the individual. If anything fighting in this manner helps a young kid to implement a pair of balls; especially if the kid hasn't been in a fight by testing himself repeatedly against others and develops that can do, no quit attitude.

    The later levels of combatives is cool too, with the whole stun gun dropped in your sparring partners pocket to simulate fighting for your life. Hell anyone would freak and fight HARD if your sparring partner in the middle of a roll pulled out a stun gun and fired it up. And later levels participants will more or less take punches and fight an MMA match.

    Its taken a while for the military to come around to this stuff but for over 10 years now the Army has been making this transition.

    That's what its for, and does it lead many Soldiers into MMA clubs and schools on the civilianside? Heck yeah, guys go in droves to learn stuff outside of the Army and quite often compete at amateur and professional levels as a hobby. AndUFC further facilitates the interest as MMA I would say hands down is the most popular sport for the U.S. military to watch!
  9. Gezere is offline
    Gezere's Avatar

    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Rhineland Pfalz, Der Vaderland
    Posts
    10,587

    Posted On:
    7/18/2009 3:02am

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ArrogantBastard View Post
    Well the US Army is starting to head in the right direction.

    The new Combatives program is pretty much BJJ with ACU's on instead of a gi.

    Only problem is that they aren't updating the techniques. For example, they still use that Gracie Gift guard pass.

    Also, the instruction is much slower paced than say most BJJ schools. They have a tendency to slow and dumb down everything.
    Thats only 1/4 of the program. Its much more than BJJ in ACUs, but BJJ is the base. Its a way to ease pple into it.

    The rest consists of Boxing, Judo, Muay Thai, Kali, rifle drills, improvised weapons.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  10. Gezere is offline
    Gezere's Avatar

    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

    Join Date
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    Location
    Rhineland Pfalz, Der Vaderland
    Posts
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    Posted On:
    7/18/2009 3:12am

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kracker View Post
    I know a veteran who unequivocally said military H2H is for building confidence and nothing more. In reality the chances of you getting into a hand to hand fight with the enemy is retardedly low. Yes Jack Bauer is awesome, but unfortunately **** doesn't work that way in real life.
    It not as low as it used to be. More and more we have soldiers getting engaged in CQC (I don't want to use H2H because it give pple the idea that both parties are unarmed which is never the case) Main reasons are because a) lethal force isn't to first thing we are told to go for right away b) close proximity of the area of operations. Sometimes you are in a large area where you can manuever, sometimes you up close and personal.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
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