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  1. Rock Ape is offline
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    Watch and Shoot !

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    Posted On:
    1/18/2010 2:50pm

    staff
     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtripp View Post
    Bullets of that nature tend to over penetrate and really are not effective stopping rounds. I really don't know of anyone who uses them or would want to anymore.
    Agreed, they are a specialist round for a particular role, I wasn't in favour of the switch from 7.62mm to 5.56mm for British standard Individual Weapons systems, the 7.62 round would cause much more of an incapacitating wound per shot fired compared with 5.56.
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler
  2. Red Elvis is offline
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    Da Komrads... Again you are MadPelvisOwn3d!

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    Posted On:
    1/18/2010 4:16pm

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     Style: Spetsnaz Shovel-Fu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    After reading a couple more posts I feel I need to clarify something before this thread goes any further that I felt was implicit knowledge but perhaps not, (now that I actually think about it).

    When I describe using full auto vs. semi auto in the tactics I described I am including a weapon with a burst mode in the spectrum of ‘full auto’. Many modern weapons with full auto have burst capabilities and most weapons that have burst modes also have full auto. Neither of these is considered semi-automatic so I lump them together and use them interchangeably.

    Why do that you ask? Because a trained person utilizing full auto typically does not mean pulling the trigger back and empting the magazine. This is what you see on television, in movies and subsequently how people think it should be done. i.e. gang bangers etc. who fire all over the damn place and empty their magazines in short order because that’s what they saw in Boyz in Da Hood.

    What I am talking about when I speak of tactics where full auto is good is either using trigger control to provide short bursts of 2-3 or 5-6 rounds MAX or using your weapon on burst if you’re lucky enough to have one with such capabilities.

    If my fully auto weapon has no burst mode then my finger is my burst mode. It’s as simple as that. Firing the complete magazine with one long trigger pull as opposed to multiple successive bursts with acquiring and re-acquiring targets are two different things.

    Anyway…

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooded Justice View Post
    The former marine who claimed 2 tours in vietnam said he never took his rifle off 3 round burst as full auto was stupid, not accurate and wasteful of ammo as well as harder on your weapon.
    That's interesting because the M-16's in Vietnam did not have a 3 round burst like the M16A2's introduced in the 80's. I’m going to assume the context of his statement was lost in translation? Perhaps he's talking about his service after 'Nam in the 80's?

    On his other points though he is correct and what the guys in Nam did is no longer the case. I can’t remember a single time using my weapon on full auto for an entire magazine besides doing it for fun or as an example of what not to do. We DID however practice doing short bursts on full auto and in burst mode to break contact, provide suppression et al.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mtripp View Post
    Now, I do not recall three round bursts, but suspect it would fall to the same problem. ..
    We found that when aiming center mass the first two rounds would typically hit and the third maybe yes and maybe no. The targets range and the shooters firing position have a lot to do with this. Generally the rounds moved in an upward pattern though which over a greater distance made for 2nd and 3rd round misses.

    Still, it provided much more accurate fire for actually hitting targets while still suppressing them then perhaps what people did in the past with spray and pray. While practicing drills to break contact for example we would use quick successive bursts to provide suppression while the other members moved. This allows for multiple targeting and re-targeting, of course being able to actually see your enemy or not does make a difference on how you would utilize your weapon. As you are aware context is everything.

    -----------------------------


    As an added clarification with regard to crew served weapons… they are fired using bursts as well, just so ya'll can be somewhat edumacated on the subject. I carried a M249 while a FNG and was trained to utilize 3-5 round bursts with equal pause. It is not only more accurate but conserves ammo and extends barrel life. I believe the bursts on an M60 were more like 6-9 with a pause in between. Vehicle mounted .50 machine guns were typically fired in bursts of 5-7 rounds with the pause varying depending upon desired intent. i.e. slow and more accurate or medium. Of course all of these could be opened up but there are consequences…
    .
    :icon_twis
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    To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence;
    Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without spilling your Guinness.
    Sun "Fu Man JhooJits" Tzu, the Art of War & Guinness
  3. Wounded Ronin is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/18/2010 5:15pm

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     Style: German longsword, .45 ACP

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah, I've rented some full auto weapons at various ranges around where I live. I've fired .30 carbine, 7.62 NATO, .45 ACP, and 9mm in full auto, standing and unsupported. I found it generally difficult to control and far less accurate then when I fire on semi-auto. Especially with 7.62 NATO, every round after the third IMO would be totally wasted if you were firing full auto standing and unsupported. I cannot imagine why anyone thinks it's cool or a good idea to dump the magazine if they're trying to actually hit a target. The lack of accuracy is so extreme I just can't imagine anyone doing that and thinking they're going to hit their target with any degree of consistiency.
    “nobody shoots anybody in the face unless you’re a hit man or a video gamer.” - Jack Thompson
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  4. Wounded Ronin is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/18/2010 5:18pm

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     Style: German longsword, .45 ACP

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by mad_malk View Post
    personally as Citizens of the United States of America i think the line in the sand on what private citizens are allowed to own should be at WMD's. if it's not a WMD and you can afford it and maintain it and store it safely then Go buy and own what ever you want. Just be prepared to pay for for that road you tore up with your tank etc.
    Well I have thought how great it would be to have a Soviet BMP, with the environmental seal, gun ports, and amphibious capability. It would be hilarious when someone tries to carjack you not realizing you've got gun ports.
    “nobody shoots anybody in the face unless you’re a hit man or a video gamer.” - Jack Thompson
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Th...%28attorney%29
  5. Hooded Justice is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/18/2010 5:36pm


     Style: Justice/Firearms

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Elvis View Post
    That's interesting because the M-16's in Vietnam did not have a 3 round burst like the M16A2's introduced in the 80's. I’m going to assume the context of his statement was lost in translation? Perhaps he's talking about his service after 'Nam in the 80's?
    I had the same thought but at the time I didn't feel like digging deeper as I didn't feel it really prudent for the setting.


    A sort of related note, I found a neat video of a guy "bump firing" his 9mm ar15. I always figured people who wanted full auto guns but couldn't get the license or afford it just practiced this as it requires nothing but ammo and time to practice.

    YouTube- bump fire 9mm ar15
  6. Hooded Justice is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/18/2010 5:42pm


     Style: Justice/Firearms

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Wounded Ronin View Post
    Well I have thought how great it would be to have a Soviet BMP, with the environmental seal, gun ports, and amphibious capability. It would be hilarious when someone tries to carjack you not realizing you've got gun ports.
    Is it really car jacking at that point? Carrier jacking? Failed assault on armored enemy?
  7. Red Elvis is offline
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    Da Komrads... Again you are MadPelvisOwn3d!

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    Posted On:
    1/18/2010 5:43pm

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     Style: Spetsnaz Shovel-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Wounded Ronin View Post
    I cannot imagine why anyone thinks it's cool or a good idea to dump the magazine if they're trying to actually hit a target. The lack of accuracy is so extreme I just can't imagine anyone doing that and thinking they're going to hit their target with any degree of consistiency.
    They do it generally because that's how they see it done in movies and music videos and a lot of younger goblins learn from that believe it or not. (I'm speaking now of criminals like gang bangers and such). Which in a way is good for the target but bad for others as most often then not they hit kids and passerby's and not their intended targets.

    From medium range on out I'd rather have a gang banger try and hit me on full auto then if he actually took the time to aim and fire semi-auto. My running skills are strong.

    What's scary is I recently read how gang bangers are getting trained in our military and then teaching their homies how to shoot, fight and maneuver when they ETS. That's some scary shiit considering the weapons they seem to come up with. Not good for LEO's either!
    .
    :icon_twis
    .

    To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence;
    Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without spilling your Guinness.
    Sun "Fu Man JhooJits" Tzu, the Art of War & Guinness
  8. Red Elvis is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/18/2010 5:54pm

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    --
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hooded Justice View Post
    A sort of related note, I found a neat video of a guy "bump firing" his 9mm ar15. I always figured people who wanted full auto guns but couldn't get the license or afford it just practiced this as it requires nothing but ammo and time to practice.
    I'm not sure how effective that would really be in a real situation while moving etc. but I agree it's probably a lot of fun for a bit, albeit expensive as hell. Good thing he's blowing 9mm instead of something bigger. $$$

    I seem to do just fine doing double taps on multiple steel targets with my semi-auto AR15 and would probably be better off then bumping in a real situation.

    I do like me the Rock River Arms though. :qleft1:

    Everything I have bought from them has fitted together and performed top notch. Even with mis-matched uppers and lowers.
    .
    :icon_twis
    .

    To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence;
    Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without spilling your Guinness.
    Sun "Fu Man JhooJits" Tzu, the Art of War & Guinness
  9. Wounded Ronin is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/18/2010 9:57pm

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     Style: German longsword, .45 ACP

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooded Justice View Post
    Is it really car jacking at that point? Carrier jacking? Failed assault on armored enemy?
    APC jacking, I guess.
    “nobody shoots anybody in the face unless you’re a hit man or a video gamer.” - Jack Thompson
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Th...%28attorney%29
  10. Wounded Ronin is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/18/2010 10:00pm

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     Style: German longsword, .45 ACP

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooded Justice View Post
    I had the same thought but at the time I didn't feel like digging deeper as I didn't feel it really prudent for the setting.


    A sort of related note, I found a neat video of a guy "bump firing" his 9mm ar15. I always figured people who wanted full auto guns but couldn't get the license or afford it just practiced this as it requires nothing but ammo and time to practice.

    YouTube- bump fire 9mm ar15
    Hey, I wonder if I should try that with my WASR AK, just once for the hell of it.
    “nobody shoots anybody in the face unless you’re a hit man or a video gamer.” - Jack Thompson
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Th...%28attorney%29
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