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  1. Matt Phillips is offline
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 3:21pm

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     Style: Submission Grappling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lu Tze View Post
    Maeda taught the Gracies what he knew, if he didn't study Fusen Ryu, how on earth did he transmit it to Carlos? What Maeda knew of Fusen Ryu he was taught in Judo, ergo...
    If I understand the history correctly (IF), Kano sent several of his students to study with Mataemon Tanabe and bring back his system's Ne Waza to the Kodokan. Kano also learned part of the system himself. Incorporating it into Judo does not automatically make Judo the source of Maeda's Ne Waza any more than JKD is the souce of the BJJ techniques I learned while studying that art.

    WW: It's true that Kano wasn't personally a great fan of newaza, but he obviously recognised its value. The emphasis on tachi waza today is the result of the IJF's misguided attempts to turn Judo into a spectator sport, it has very little to do with Jigoro Kano.
    I think it is also the result of similar changes introduced during Kano's time for what may be the exact same reason.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  2. ChickenBeakFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 3:22pm


     Style: Hillbilly Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lu Tze View Post
    Maeda taught the Gracies what he knew, if he didn't study Fusen Ryu, how on earth did he transmit it to Carlos? What Maeda knew of Fusen Ryu he was taught in Judo, ergo...
    Fair enough, I was thinking more in terms of "overview of the times as this transition was taking place." I can't off-hand think about a book on fusen-ryu. Would love to learn of one, though
  3. UpaLumpa is offline
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    Exasperated.

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 3:23pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by War Wheel View Post
    The fact that competitive Judo continues to minimize the role of Ne Waza says a lot.
    About what?
    The Kodokan does not have a lot of say about what the IJF does.
  4. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 3:25pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    "Don't think about what to do after you become strong -- I have repeatedly stressed that the ultimate goal of Judo is to perfect the self, and to make a contribution to society.

    ....

    However, it must be remembered that this is just part of the process for a greater objective... The worth of all people is dependent on how they spend their life making contributions." Kano Jigoro, 1918.


    Vinicius Bittencourt Almeida Magalhaes, 3rd degree Black Belt, better known in Jiu-Jitsu scene as "Draculino".

    I don't see a big difference between Judo and BJJ.
    I was waiting for that, I've seen it and heard it before.

    BJJ is not a pedagogical system/ and was never intended to be, for the purpose of the perfection of human character. It does not seem to have been designed to be so, neither has it evolved into a single coherent system for that purpose-from what I can see. That is not to say that one cannot become a "better person" through the practice of BJJ-one could do so through many activities, sportive or otherwise. However, if you are for example long time and serious wrestler, in the Free Style or say, Greco Roman "styles", and end up maturing and becoming a better person for it, that does not make wrestling equivalent to Kodokan Judo.

    See what I mean?
  5. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 3:28pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwan_dao View Post
    On a short lookup (can provide sources tomorrow if need be, got training tonight and am thus off and away now):

    The Meiji government installed an educational system consisting of:

    Primary School (obligatory for everyone)
    Middle School
    University

    This was held up until shortly before WWII. Its a copy of the german system btw.

    No mention of colleges, especially no technical colleges. The full term for them would be "kōtō-senmon-gakkō" which is abbreviated as "kosen". Direct translation would be something like "special high-school"?

    Special high schools in the sense of prep schools for the 'Seven Sisters.

    Considering the amount of time Kano spent in Europe studying their various educational systems, no suprise about the structure.
  6. Cy Q. Faunce is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 3:30pm

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     Style: Finding You

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    WW, I have to ask: What is it with you and judo?

    What is with the Judo nuthuggery on this site? - No BS Martial Arts


    And now you're redefining judo to mean your idea of what Jigoro Kano liked or felt in his heart at some point. Or something.

    I have no idea what your point is, but just as you questioned CBK's motives, I'm questioning yours.
  7. 1point2 is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 3:35pm

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     Style: 剛 and 柔

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cy Q. Faunce View Post
    WW, I have to ask: What is it with you and judo?

    What is with the Judo nuthuggery on this site? - No BS Martial Arts

    And now you're redefining judo to mean your idea of what Jigoro Kano liked or felt in his heart at some point. Or something.
    This was my original thought as well.

    @BKR: BJJ was designed, as per Helio, to allow a smaller person to defeat a larger, stronger one. Pedagogical methods and character-improvement-systems are certainly high on the list of a number of BJJ teachers. I would add Ribiero to that list; he has a podcast on Youtube where he talks about requiring students to embody jiujitsu, to know the history, to know judo throws, to act right, etc.

    There are plenty of judo schools that have lost this mindset, just like there are many BJJ schools that aren't really about it.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
  8. Matt Phillips is offline
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 3:38pm

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     Style: Submission Grappling

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    Quote Originally Posted by UpaLumpa View Post
    About what?
    The Kodokan does not have a lot of say about what the IJF does.
    It says a lot about the incomplete synthesis of the Tanabe's Ne Waza compare to the Tachi Waza of other styles.

    As much as folks would like to keep them together, the urge to seperate them seems to come up over and over again.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  9. ChickenBeakFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 3:43pm


     Style: Hillbilly Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by War Wheel View Post
    It says a lot about the incomplete synthesis of the Tanabe's Ne Waza compare to the Tachi Waza of other styles.

    As much as folks would like to keep them together, the urge to seperate them seems to come up over and over again.
  10. Lu Tze is offline

    BJJ might make you a better ground fighter, but Judo will make you a better dancer.

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 3:43pm

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     Style: Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by War Wheel View Post
    If I understand the history correctly (IF), Kano sent several of his students to study with Mataemon Tanabe and bring back his system's Ne Waza to the Kodokan. Kano also learned part of the system himself. Incorporating it into Judo does not automatically make Judo the source of Maeda's Ne Waza any more than JKD is the souce of the BJJ techniques I learned while studying that art.
    You could say the same about Maeda's tachi waza, that didn't come from Judo either... it's a massive red herring. Maeda never trained Fusen Ryu, his only formative exposure to martial arts was at the Kodokan (apart from a brief stint in Sumo).

    Attempts to link BJJ to the magical mysterious Fusen Ryu, somehow bypassing the link to Judo is ludicrous IMO. Maeda's newaza came from Fusen Ryu, in the same way every Judoka's newaza does.
    Quote Originally Posted by War Wheel View Post
    I think it is also the result of similar changes introduced during Kano's time for what may be the exact same reason.
    If Jigoro Kano didn't want Judo to contain newaza, he wouldn't have included it in the first place. You're suggesting he had to somehow weasel it out of his own system, after he himself sent people to learn it with the express purpose of incorporating it into Judo... that's insane.
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