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  1. ChickenBeakFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 2:34pm


     Style: Hillbilly Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by War Wheel View Post
    What you are saying comes across as, don't ask any questions until you are one of us. The danger in that is that I may have forgotten why I questioned you at all by the time you are handing me my nifty new brown belt.
    Once a reporter asked Stephen Hawking what existed before The Big Bang. His response: "What's north of the North Pole?"

    P.S.
    Tried to +rep you for the Faster Pussycat quote earlier in the thread. Did the push ups. Though we disagree you are clearly a man after my own heart
  2. Matt Phillips is online now
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 2:38pm

    supporting member
     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Tura has teh r34l de4dly!
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  3. ChickenBeakFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 2:45pm


     Style: Hillbilly Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by War Wheel View Post
    Tura has teh r34l de4dly!
    Alright. Enough YMAS shenanigans.

    I would recommend you check out the book Mitsuyo Maeda: The Toughest Man Who Ever Lived. It's a pretty interesting read that discusses the exact time period you're interested in.

    http://www.budovideos.com/shop/custo...72&cat=&page=1
  4. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 2:50pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by War Wheel View Post
    You seem to be implying that there is something to Kano's take on the Ne Waza he brought in from Fusen-ryu that makes it the real taproot of BJJ. Is that an accurate assesment of your belief, or am I reading more into this than I shoud? Obviously the Fusen-ryu school was not using the Judo-gi. Is there more to it than just that, or can we say that Fusen-ryu is the source of the techniques that informed Judo Ne Waza, Catch, and GJJ?
    Much of this is speculative, but for the era we're talking about, the pre-KOSEN judo inter-school tournaments and the Handa dojo in Osaka seem to be common links re. competitive ne-waza.

    IMO Fusen-ryu per se may also be something of a red herring; we know that Mataemon Tanabe was also associated with the Handa dojo and that both Uyenishi and Miyake referred to the Handa dojo in connection with their own training before they started competing outside Japan. As I quoted earlier, Miyake specified that the style(s) taught at the Handa dojo emphasized ne-waza.

    My best guess on this, because we quickly run out of documentable sources, is that ne-waza was something more in the nature of a personal specialty of Tanabe's, perhaps shared by Yataro Handa (I can't recall their formal relationship offhand). I would further speculate that there may have been some connection between what was being taught at the Handa dojo and the more-or-less informal inter-style competition rules/conventions that were evolving as a result of the high-school level competitions during the 1890s and very early 1900s, which was when the international judo/jujitsu pioneers were training in Japan. Again, those rules also appear to have emphasized competitive ne-waza.
  5. UpaLumpa is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 2:51pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by War Wheel View Post
    a) Kano did not invision Judo as containing that material when he created the art.
    So?
    Kano founded judo while in his 20's and added techniques (both of his own design as well as those modified from other styles) to judo throughout his life time. The core techniques of judo and its kata were in flux throughout much of his life and the Gokyo no Waza wasn't really finalized until, as I recall, around 1920.
  6. Matt Phillips is online now
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 2:52pm

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     Style: Submission Grappling

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChickenBeakFist View Post
    Alright. Enough YMAS shenanigans.

    I would recommend you check out the book Mitsuyo Maeda: The Toughest Man Who Ever Lived. It's a pretty interesting read that discusses the exact time period you're interested in.

    http://www.budovideos.com/shop/custo...72&cat=&page=1
    Thank you! I shall read it while I'm stroking my beard.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  7. Lu Tze is offline

    BJJ might make you a better ground fighter, but Judo will make you a better dancer.

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 2:58pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

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    Am I missing something here, did Maeda train in Fusen Ryu?
  8. ChickenBeakFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 3:01pm


     Style: Hillbilly Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lu Tze View Post
    Am I missing something here, did Maeda train in Fusen Ryu?
    No. But it puts the time period WW is focusing on in context.
  9. Matt Phillips is online now
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 3:01pm

    supporting member
     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    Much of this is speculative, but for the era we're talking about, the pre-KOSEN judo inter-school tournaments and the Handa dojo in Osaka seem to be common links re. competitive ne-waza.

    IMO Fusen-ryu per se may also be something of a red herring; we know that Mataemon Tanabe was also associated with the Handa dojo and that both Uyenishi and Miyake referred to the Handa dojo in connection with their own training before they started competing outside Japan. As I quoted earlier, Miyake specified that the style(s) taught at the Handa dojo emphasized ne-waza.

    My best guess on this, because we quickly run out of documentable sources, is that ne-waza was something more in the nature of a personal specialty of Tanabe's, perhaps shared by Yataro Handa (I can't recall their formal relationship offhand). I would further speculate that there may have been some connection between what was being taught at the Handa dojo and the more-or-less informal inter-style competition rules/conventions that were evolving as a result of the high-school level competitions during the 1890s and very early 1900s, which was when the international judo/jujitsu pioneers were training in Japan. Again, those rules also appear to have emphasized competitive ne-waza.
    That's a good point. I was just using "Fusen-ryu" to give the source of the techniques a name, but you're right, it really is one particular school within the Fusen style that is responsible for the techniques in question. What I am trying to avoid is discussions that go something like "Kano's Judo proved superior to all other styles when they met head to head at the Tokyo police academy. Maeda proved this superiority when he traveled the world and won numerous challenge matches. The style he taught in Brazil owes everything to Jigoro Kano." Or some such.

    IMO this ignores the contribution of Tanabe's school (and of Catch wrestling as you point out). Kano did continue to add material, but I have not seen anyone claim that Judo's Ne Waza has any other source than Tanabe's take on Fusen-ryu.

    The fact that competitive Judo continues to minimize the role of Ne Waza says a lot.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  10. Lu Tze is offline

    BJJ might make you a better ground fighter, but Judo will make you a better dancer.

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 3:11pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ChickenBeakFist View Post
    No. But it puts the time period WW is focusing on in context.
    Maeda taught the Gracies what he knew, if he didn't study Fusen Ryu, how on earth did he transmit it to Carlos? What Maeda knew of Fusen Ryu he was taught in Judo, ergo...

    WW: It's true that Kano wasn't personally a great fan of newaza, but he obviously recognised its value. The emphasis on tachi waza today is the result of the IJF's misguided attempts to turn Judo into a spectator sport, it has very little to do with Jigoro Kano.
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