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  1. ChickenBeakFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 1:18pm


     Style: Hillbilly Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by War Wheel View Post
    I don't have any fucking expertise in Judo. What I do have is an open mind, and a healthy dose of curiosity. I didn't write a book, I tossed up the facts as I understand them, laid out the conclusion they seemed to be pointing to, and solicited the opinion of all of you, hoping to get a better picture of the issue.
    First off, the opinion that my preference for someone to have some practical experience in a martial art before passing off assumptions as fact being tantamount to cultism is retarded.

    I think you'll get a better picture of the issue when you put on the gi and get your ass on the mat. Hopefully your financial station improves and that can happen one day. Maybe it won't.

    I don't begrudge you your intellectual curiousity. I have a huge stack books full of martial arts I'll never, ever do. I regularly spar with fake weapons I've never had any formal instruction with. I own kung fu slippers. I don't bring this stuff up on BS without a healthy dose of self-effacing irony. Because this isn't MAP. We got to be able to back our **** up.

    If you need me I'll be making LoLCats while pretending to work.
  2. Matt Phillips is offline
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 1:21pm

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     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtripp View Post
    No question, people in the seats. Why make it go faster unless people in the stands are unhappy?
    Some people interpret the modification as being for the purpose of restoring Tachi Waza to a central position. Does that seem unlikely? The line of reasoning I was trying to explore was that Kano might have been uncomfortable with the matwork taking up a central position in Judo, as it was not part of his initial reformation of JJJ, but came from another non-classical (and competing) JJJ source. In other words, the new Ne Waza material was not his baby, and maybe got treated like a step-child when it started getting too big for its britches. Would be interesting and significant if true.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  3. Matt Phillips is offline
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 1:26pm

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     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ChickenBeakFist View Post
    First off, the opinion that my preference for someone to have some practical experience in a martial art before passing off assumptions as fact being tantamount to cultism is retarded.

    I think you'll get a better picture of the issue when you put on the gi and get your ass on the mat. Hopefully your financial station improves and that can happen one day. Maybe it won't.

    I don't begrudge you your intellectual curiousity. I have a huge stack books full of martial arts I'll never, ever do. I regularly spar with fake weapons I've never had any formal instruction with. I own kung fu slippers. I don't bring this stuff up on BS without a healthy dose of self-effacing irony. Because this isn't MAP. We got to be able to back our **** up.

    If you need me I'll be making LoLCats while pretending to work.
    So I'd be in the clear if I were an ARMA participant posting on Rapier fencing, but not if I were one of these guys (http://www.thearma.org/Experts.htm)?

    I mean, look at those beard-stroking weenies!
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  4. UpaLumpa is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 2:02pm

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    WW,
    BJJ has no connection to Kosen. The majority of the techniques of bjj are also found in judo (there is only judo, Kosen judo was really just a rule set). Most of these techniques were probably learned from Maeda, more esoteric techniques were probably of independent origin although also to be found in judo.

    From what I've read, the Kosen-Kodokan divide is something that only comes up outside of Japan and really isn't real.

    BJJ and Judo are different really just because they diverged from one another as the developed under different pressures.
  5. ChickenBeakFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 2:07pm


     Style: Hillbilly Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by War Wheel View Post
    So I'd be in the clear if I were an ARMA participant posting on Rapier fencing, but not if I were one of these guys (http://www.thearma.org/Experts.htm)?

    I mean, look at those beard-stroking weenies!
    You're intentionally missing the point.

    ARMA exists expressly to re-create and preserve dead arts. Research and the knowledge of historians is necessary. Besides, there's always going to be some level of abstraction when it comes to weapons because you can't truly do "alive" sword training. They'll never be able to functionally "prove" what they do until the day comes that they decide to hack at each other with live steel. This will be equal parts horrifying and awesome.

    There's absolutely nothing stopping you or any of those beard-stroking weenies from practicing Judo or BJJ. They are both living, evolving arts that can be used effectively with a minimum of serious injury. Once you discover that there is no functional difference between a juji-gatame and an armbar maybe you will have a much clearer understanding of the differences between the two without having to parse through all the abstraction. The difference between knowing and applying is what separates us from the FOOM FOOM guy.
  6. JohnnyFive is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 2:15pm


     Style: Judo/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    BJJ people wear a judo gi, use a belt-based ranking system, and even tap out to signify submission. It seems a little silly to insist that BJJ is so very different from Judo just because BJJ people do not assume that anybody who is thrown for ippon has been instantly slain by the awesome might of Judo. Realize that to everybody else it's all suspicious sweaty man-hugging.

    Then again, I hold many massively unpopular beliefs, which include:

    Karate is entirely contained within Judo's many kata.
    Aikido is Judo preformed in skirts.
    The Kimura is not the only technique so named because a Judoka defeated a BJJ'er with it. In fact, every BJJ technique is named after a Judo master who used it to defeat a BJJ black belt. Omoplata is probably one of Yamashita's cousins or something.
  7. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 2:19pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    KOSEN judo, per se, may be a red herring. Maeda and the other Japanese pioneers (Tani, Miyake, Uyenishi, Ono et al) had already left Japan well before 1914, when Professor Kano formalized the KOSEN competitive format.

    As I mentioned earlier, there were inter-school and inter-style judo and jujitsu tournaments in Japan dating back to the 1890s, and these tournaments (the precursors of what we think of as "KOSEN judo" today) are known to have emphasized ne-waza. Personally, I would look towards them, at least as much as the formal Kodokan judo of the period, in seeking the technical origins of BJJ.

    N.B. also that by the time Maeda arrived in Brazil, he already also had considerable experience in Western wrestling styles via his work in Europe. We also have to allow for considerable innovation and further development over the best part of a hundred years in Brazil.
  8. Matt Phillips is offline
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 2:22pm

    supporting member
     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    CBF, you are intentionally missing my point. I am not trying to claim thet BJJ is technically distinct from Judo. I am trying to find out if it is fair to say that Judo is the source of those techniques, when it is clear from the historical record that

    a) Kano did not invision Judo as containing that material when he created the art.

    b) It is known that the material in question came from a competing system.

    c) It is possible that Kano wasn't keen on the impact the new material was having on the system.

    The only reason I am not making a definitive statement is that c) is in question, and that is what I'm trying to find out. If you were listening to what i am actually saying instead of assuming I am making asinine statement #2467 you would realize that the fact of identity between a juji-gatame and an armbar is essential to the question I am trying to ask, and not contrary to it.

    What you are saying comes across as, don't ask any questions until you are one of us. The danger in that is that I may have forgotten why I questioned you at all by the time you are handing me my nifty new brown belt.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  9. Matt Phillips is offline
    Matt Phillips's Avatar

    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 2:28pm

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     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    Personally, I would look towards them, at least as much as the formal Kodokan judo of the period, in seeking the technical origins of BJJ.
    You seem to be implying that there is something to Kano's take on the Ne Waza he brought in from Fusen-ryu that makes it the real taproot of BJJ. Is that an accurate assesment of your belief, or am I reading more into this than I shoud? Obviously the Fusen-ryu school was not using the Judo-gi. Is there more to it than just that, or can we say that Fusen-ryu is the source of the techniques that informed Judo Ne Waza, Catch, and GJJ?
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  10. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 2:31pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The study of history isn't a matter of abstraction, nor does technical expertise in, for example, judo have any bearing on a historian's authority on the subject of judo history.

    For example, Dr. Sydney Anglo is a highly respected professional historian who may well never have picked up a sword in his life, but he is listened to with great respect by senior ARMA (and other HEMA) practitioners when it comes to the histories of their styles. He has enormous credibility because he's spent his entire professional life mastering history as an academic discipline.

    Compare his experience and credentials to that of a hypothetical expert German longsword fencer who has no interest in history. The smart money would be on the longsword fencer for accurate info on, for example, tactical defense from the Alber guard position, and on Dr. Anglo for accurate info. on the historical development of German longsword fencing.
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