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  1. kwan_dao is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 12:30pm


     Style: sambo, stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    On a short lookup (can provide sources tomorrow if need be, got training tonight and am thus off and away now):

    The Meiji government installed an educational system consisting of:

    Primary School (obligatory for everyone)
    Middle School
    University

    This was held up until shortly before WWII. Its a copy of the german system btw.

    No mention of colleges, especially no technical colleges. The full term for them would be "kōtō-senmon-gakkō" which is abbreviated as "kosen". Direct translation would be something like "special high-school"?
  2. Mtripp is offline
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    Choked out by Gene Lebell

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 12:33pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MrBadGuy View Post
    ...Seriously? Just bring 3moose1 into this thread. Or look for the thread "name a move in BJJ that isn't in judo". Or any of the other ten bajillion Basically Just Judo posts.
    Only if you THEN bring on the "any BJJ blue belt can beat any judo black belt" and "Kimura was a world Jujitsu champion" and "Judo was created to fool the people into thinking they were getting the real techniques of jujitsu" etc people who have spouted that crap for the last 10 years....
  3. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 12:34pm

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kwan_dao View Post
    Do you have any sources for that? Because afaik the "kosen" schools (technical colleges with five-year courses) were officially founded by the japanese government from 1962 onwards. This was also approved by some japanese friends of mine. Up to now I never encountered any mentioning of that term before the 1960´s. Doesn´t mean a lot, but still...

    I will have to lookup the development of the japanese educational system, but somehow I doubt they had highschools and colleges in 1880.

    If they had, I stand corrected as to the possibility of Jigoro Kano himself inventing the "kosen judo" ruleset. Somehow I doubt that though.
    Good questions. AFAIK what we refer to today as "KOSEN" judo (and that system of naming schools per se) only dates back to 1914, but there definitely were the equivalent of high schools and technical colleges in Japan dating back at least as far as the 1890s. Some of them were private schools, others were public.

    We know that, for example, Yukio Tani and Sadakazu Uyenishi were already highly proficient at competitive ne-waza when they arrived in London c1900, and they were only nineteen and twenty years old, respectively.

    There are records of intra-mural jujitsu tournaments taking place at the following schools (note that the high schools were originally designated with numbers):

    1891 No1 high school loses to Gakushuin in judo match
    1893 No2 high school founds judo club
    1893 Isogai appointed to No3 high school as judo instructor
    1894 Tokyo Teachers School to have judo dojo
    1895 Sakujiro Yokoyama to become Shihan at No1 high school
    1898 Judo match between No1 and No2 high school
    1899 No1 high school against No2
    1900 Mitsuyo Maeda to teach at No1 high school
    1901 No3 high school against Kanazawa Medical school
    1902 No3 high school against Keio Univ.
    1906 No1 high school against Tokyo Teachers school
    1907 No4 against No6
    1908 No6 against Kobe high school of commerce
    1909 No3 against No6
    1910 No5 against No7
    1910 No1 against No2

    The numbered-high schools were later "upgraded" to today`s universities.

    No1 = Tokyo University
    No2 = Tohoku University
    No3 = Kyoto University
    No4 = Kanazawa University
    No5 = Kumamoto University
    No6=Okayama University
    No7 = Kagoshima University

    Also, there are records of a judo dojo being established at Keio University as early as 1874.

    Thus, the theory is that in 1914, Professor Kano formalized a competitive intra-mural judo/jujitsu format that had been evolving (more or less informally) at the high school and technical college level since the 1890s.
  4. Dsimon3387 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 12:34pm

    Join us... or die
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I loved M Tripp's work on this subject...

    I would say that sources can be a good thing but not as a threat to encourage censorship. You don't have to be a historical scholar to have an opinion about the Kodokan and Post feudal Japan.

    And this is addressed to no one in particular but a certain arrogance:

    there were real historical affects that shaped Judo and how it migrated. Anyone who thinks that the Bushi was simply bested, end of story... well you can have all the source material in the world to back up this contention but it is nonsense... And if you hold this belief you do not know Japanese ways of being...

    The inconvenient truth is that many a samurai would have rather died and looked inferior than pass an art on to an unworthy... There are combat experts today who consider the qualities and consumate skill of the Japanese Bushi to be unparalled to the hour. Even at their worse, betrayed by their government and with no purpose to fufill the Samurai's arts are transmitted to this day.... That is quite a fiat considering how many great combat systems we will never know. One mark of greatness is perseverance.
  5. Matt Phillips is online now
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 12:35pm

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     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ChickenBeakFist View Post
    I just don't understand the point of intellectualizing two living, evolving arts. It's not as if we're discussing the tactics of Greek hoplites. If you want to gain a better understanding of the connection between the two why not practice them?

    And in my opinion the question of rank and experience is perfectly valid. If I stood up in front of a room full of dentists to discuss the finer points and history of anesthetics while claiming no more knowledge than having read a book or article here and there I would be very surprised if I was not immediately ignored.
    I know several historians of medicine who would beg to differ. You are taking a very odd position about the study of History.

    What exactly do you think I would learn about the influence of Fusen-ryu on Kodokan Judo, Kosen Judo and BJJ by taking Judo M,W,F and BJJ T,Th,S?

    FTR, the reason I do not take BJJ or Judo is that I can not afford the expense, or the time to train at a different Gym from my son. Not because I am not interested.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  6. Mas is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 12:35pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ChickenBeakFist View Post
    I just don't understand the point of intellectualizing two living, evolving arts. It's not as if we're discussing the tactics of Greek hoplites. If you want to gain a better understanding of the connection between the two why not practice them?

    And in my opinion the question of rank and experience is perfectly valid. If I stood up in front of a room full of dentists to discuss the finer points and history of anesthetics while claiming no more knowledge than having read a book or article here and there I would be very surprised if I was not immediately ignored.
    While the arts are continually evolving, it is interesting and important to chronicle their early links. Practicing Judo and Jiu-jitsu does not connections make, historically or even practically.

    While experts are generally regarded as often more correct than amateurs in matters of history, there are historians that are often plain wrong, and are ignored or minimized. While you may be laughed out of a room of dentists for discussing the finer points of the history of anesthetics, if you read those finer points from a reputable/peer reviewed source you are not (necessarily) wrong.

    In fact, there are many historians who do not believe that there is such a thing called amateur history, ie everyone who embarks upon any historiographical endeavor is a true historian.

    Though there are some historians who are better than others (sometimes way better).

  7. MaxThunderstone is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 12:40pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Not the same art. If they are, I need to turn in my belt, because I fail hard at takedowns.
  8. Matt Phillips is online now
    Matt Phillips's Avatar

    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 12:44pm

    supporting member
     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    We know that, for example, Yukio Tani and Sadakazu Uyenishi were already highly proficient at competitive ne-waza when they arrived in London c1900, and they were only nineteen and twenty years old, respectively.
    Ah, the sweet smell of reasoning.

    Does anyone have any information (or opinion) on the modifications that were made to the competitive Judo format after Ne Waza first started to dominate?
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  9. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 12:45pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So you need rank in an art to discuss it? Then I'm off to the Haitian Machete Art thread to tell every single poster to stop posting. While I'm at it, I'll stop by the WMA forum threads on Spanish knife fighting, gaucho knife fighting, Viking shield and sword, and rough and tumble fighting.
  10. ChickenBeakFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 12:54pm


     Style: Hillbilly Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CodosDePiedra View Post
    So you need rank in an art to discuss it?
    Discussion is fine. If you want to lay claim to any degree of "expertise" I would prefer someone have some experience in that particular field, especially if we're discussing a living art.

    Arrrrrrrrrrrgh. This is why I try to avoid internet debates. I'm sticking to my motherfucking image macros...



    Ahhhhhhhh...

    Much better
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