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  1. DdlR is offline
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    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 11:51am

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The Bartitsu Society has been researching the relationship between early competitive jujitsu and Kodokan judo for a while, trying to get a handle on the early jujitsu training of Bartitsu Club jujitsu instructors Yukio Tani and Sadakazu Uyenishi (the first jujitsuka to take on European wrestlers).

    Incidentally, Mitsuyo Maeda traveled to and competed in London before he went to Brazil. There, he worked with Uyenishi (a.k.a. "Raku") and fellow "international" judo/jujitsu pioneers Akitaro Ono (who wrestled professionally as "Daibutsu") and Taro Miyake. All of them received extensive exposure to European wrestling styles, including Lancashire (catch as catch can), and most of them competed against these styles in the mixed-style matches pioneered in England by E.W. Barton-Wright, the founder of Bartitsu.

    The gist of this issue is that ne-waza may have been more in the nature of a personal specialty of Tanabe Mataemon's, than a notable aspect of Fusen-ryu per se; also that it appears to have characterized the KOSEN competition format before being formally integrated into the Kodokan syllabus.

    The connection seems to be the Handa dojo in Osaka, which was referenced by both Uyenishi and Taro Miyake. The teacher there was named Yataro (also spelled Yatarou) Handa. In a 1915 newspaper interview, Miyake distinguished the Handa dojo style from Kodokan judo and implied that the style taught there was much more concerned with ne-waza than was Kodokan judo. Note that Miyake was referring to the time that he had been training in Japan, i.e. late 1800s, rather than the situation that existed in 1915:

    All, or practically all, of the Japanese jiu-jitsu experts who have
    exhibited in this country [e.g., the USA], have been exponents of the
    Kodokan style, which has its headquarters in Tokio. Kodokan jiu-jitsu
    became popular here because it is the style brought into play when two
    men are standing and it is spectacular. Therefore, it was the most
    suitable method to furnish Americans and Europeans with an
    illustration of how to repel attacks in ordinary assaults.

    The other school of jiu-jitsu is called Handa, and its great teachers
    are at Osaka, where I learned. Handa is more particularly the kind of
    jiu-jitsu used when two men are on the mat, as in catch-as-catch-can.
    The jiu-jitsu tricks of the tiny Japanese policemen, which have been
    written about so much by travelers, embody the elementary principles
    of the Kodokan method, and some of the policemen are quite good at
    them. As I have said, there is little stand-up work in catch-as-catch
    can and Handa experts are the ones to offer a comparison between the
    Japanese and American methods.

    Of course, every Kodokan expert knows more or less about Handa, and
    every Handa man knows a lot about Kodokan, but nevertheless they are
    each highly specialized, individual professions. Both have the same
    fundamental principles applied in all jiu-jitsu, which consists in
    going against the grain, so to speak. That is, if you grip a man's arm
    and can get it out straight, you apply the pressure at the elbow
    against the direction of the natural crook of that joint, and so on,
    but each school has its own box of tricks.
    We know that Tanabe Mataemon was connected to the Handa dojo and that Uyenishi, Miyake and Tani were all experts at ne-waza circa 1900; we have no evidence connecting Tani nor Uyenishi to Kodokan judo at that time.

    Evidence does point towards Uyenishi, Tani and some of the other pioneers having competed very successfully in high school/technical college jujitsu matches before leaving Japan for London; these matches were probably the precursors of the KOSEN format. Little-known fact; while Kano formalized Kosen judo in 1914, there had actually been numerous intra-mural jujitsu competitions between Japanese technical colleges, high schools etc. dating back to the 1880s. One theory is that the emphasis on ne-waza came about partly because ground grappling was considered to be safer for kids than high-amplitude throwing. In any case, these competitions may represent the first time a wide range of jujitsu ryu-ha come together under relatively safe competition rules.
    Last edited by DdlR; 6/29/2009 12:07pm at .
  2. ChickenBeakFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 11:52am


     Style: Hillbilly Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kwan_dao View Post
    Congratulations! You just managed to break the legitimacy of 99.99% of all historians worldwide. We have a winner!

    Claiming that one would need any degree in a martial art to openly discuss its history (or even technical aspects) is ridiculous.

    I am just reading a good (well researched and yet interesting) book on pre-republic roman warfare. Guess I will claim a refund, as the scholars who wrote the articles within definitly never held any rank in the legion. BTW: Judging from the pictures, some of those guys would definitly not be able to even lift a complete set of Hoplite arms and armor, less even move with it... slimey frauds!

    Just out of couriosity: The argument you used (basically "you are not one of us and thus are not allowed to discuss about/with us") is most often brought forward by cultleaders/-members, to defend themselves against criticism. Are you aming at making Judo a cult or something?
  3. Matt Phillips is online now
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 11:56am

    supporting member
     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    The Bartitsu Society has been researching the relationship between early competitive jujitsu and Kodokan judo for a while, trying to get a handle on the early jujitsu training of Bartitsu Club Yukio Tani and Sadakazu Uyenishi (the first jujitsuka to take on European wrestlers).

    Incidentally, Mitsuyo Maeda traveled to and competed in London before he went to Brazil. There, he worked with Uyenishi (a.k.a. "Raku") and fellow "international" judo/jujitsu pioneers Akitaro Ono (who wrestled professionally as "Daibutsu") and Taro Miyake. All of them received extensive exposure to European wrestling styles, including Lancashire (catch as catch can), and most of them competed against these styles in the mixed-style matches pioneered in England by E.W. Barton-Wright, the founder of Bartitsu.

    The gist of this issue that ne-waza may have been more in the nature of a personal specialty of Tanabe Mataemon's, than a notable aspect of Fusen-ryu per se; also that it appears to have characterized the KOSEN competition format before being formally integrated into the Kodokan syllabus.

    The connection seems to be the Handa dojo in Osaka, which was referenced by both Uyenishi and Taro Miyake. The teacher there was named Yataro (also spelled Yatarou) Handa. In a 1915 newspaper interview, Miyake distinguished the Handa dojo style from Kodokan judo and implied that the style taught there was much more concerned with ne-waza than was Kodokan judo. Note that Miyake was referring to the time that he had been training in Japan, i.e. late 1800s, rather than the situation that existed in 1915:



    We know that Tanabe Mataemon was connected to the Handa dojo and that Uyenishi, Miyake and Tani were all experts at ne-waza circa 1900; we have no evidence connecting Tani nor Uyenishi to Kodokan judo at that time.

    Evidence does point towards Uyenishi, Tani and some of the other pioneers having competed very successfully in high school/technical college jujitsu matches before leaving Japan for London; these matches were probably the precursors of the KOSEN format. Little-known fact; while Kano formalized Kosen judo in 1914, there had actually been numerous intra-mural jujitsu competitions between Japanese technical colleges, high schools etc. dating back to the 1880s. One theory is that the emphasis on ne-waza came about partly because ground grappling was considered to be safer for kids than high-amplitude throwing. In any case, these competitions may represent the first time a wide range of jujitsu ryu-ha come together under relatively safe competition rules.
    Before I comment on how excellent this post is, can you tell us what is your rank in Judo?

    Good stuff. Thanks!
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  4. ChickenBeakFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 12:00pm


     Style: Hillbilly Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by War Wheel View Post
    Before I comment on how excellent this post is, can you tell us what is your rank in Judo?

    Good stuff. Thanks!
    Just for that, you're out of my Judo cult...
  5. Matt Phillips is online now
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 12:08pm

    supporting member
     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ChickenBeakFist View Post
    Just for that, you're out of my Judo cult...
    Judo is soft. We don't like nothing soft. Everything we touch is hard.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  6. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 12:10pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

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    *popcorn*
  7. kwan_dao is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 12:13pm


     Style: sambo, stuff

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    Little-known fact; while Kano formalized Kosen judo in 1914, there had actually been numerous intra-mural jujitsu competitions between Japanese technical colleges, high schools etc. dating back to the 1880s. One theory is that the emphasis on ne-waza came about partly because ground grappling was considered to be safer for kids than high-amplitude throwing. In any case, these competitions may represent the first time a wide range of jujitsu ryu-ha come together under relatively safe competition rules.
    Do you have any sources for that? Because afaik the "kosen" schools (technical colleges with five-year courses) were officially founded by the japanese government from 1962 onwards. This was also approved by some japanese friends of mine. Up to now I never encountered any mentioning of that term before the 1960´s. Doesn´t mean a lot, but still...

    I will have to lookup the development of the japanese educational system, but somehow I doubt they had highschools and colleges in 1880.

    If they had, I stand corrected as to the possibility of Jigoro Kano himself inventing the "kosen judo" ruleset. Somehow I doubt that though.
  8. MrBadGuy is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 12:13pm

    supporting member
     Style: Grapplomancer

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post

    I also don't know whose BJJ = Judo position you're arguing against.

    ...Seriously? Just bring 3moose1 into this thread. Or look for the thread "name a move in BJJ that isn't in judo". Or any of the other ten bajillion Basically Just Judo posts.
  9. Mas is offline
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    Antiquated

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 12:17pm


     Style: Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by War Wheel View Post
    It is a sign of my n00bishness with this subject that i didn't realize the history I cited was in dispute. I have mentioned some of them on this forum before and not had them challenged. I am all about citing sources when necessary.

    I don't post on Judoforum because I am not a Judoka.
    I have no doubt that posting this question on Judoforum would not open up questions of "what is your rank/how long have you studied" as it has no bearing on the question itself.

    You have read something that said X, and from that/those source(s) you surmised Y; there is nothing wrong about asking people who better know the material their (studied) opinion on Y.

    You may get flamed because it has been done before, but not because you do not practice Judo. That is just silly.

  10. ChickenBeakFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 12:25pm


     Style: Hillbilly Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I just don't understand the point of intellectualizing two living, evolving arts. It's not as if we're discussing the tactics of Greek hoplites. If you want to gain a better understanding of the connection between the two why not practice them?

    And in my opinion the question of rank and experience is perfectly valid. If I stood up in front of a room full of dentists to discuss the finer points and history of anesthetics while claiming no more knowledge than having read a book or article here and there I would be very surprised if I was not immediately ignored.
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