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  1. Matt Phillips is offline
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 10:55am

    supporting member
     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ChickenBeakFist View Post
    Actually, it's not. Trying to pass yourself off as an authority on a martial art while having no rank or experience in said martial art is the very essence of Bullshido.
    That's ridiculous. I am not claiming any authority. This is a question of History, not technique. the historical record is what it is. It is the same for a white belt as it is for a black belt.

    Trying to pass myself off as an expert? I post here pretty much every day. I interact with all of you all the time. I think its pretty safe to say you all know I have no training in Judo, and a little training in BJJ. I've said it a thousand times. My OP is not going to change that, and you know I was never trying to do so.

    Its a reasonable question, and it doesn't matter if it comes from Gokor, or Bobby Orr.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  2. DCS is online now
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 10:57am

    Join us... or die
     Style: 柔道

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "Don't think about what to do after you become strong -- I have repeatedly stressed that the ultimate goal of Judo is to perfect the self, and to make a contribution to society.

    ....

    However, it must be remembered that this is just part of the process for a greater objective... The worth of all people is dependent on how they spend their life making contributions." Kano Jigoro, 1918.


    Vinicius Bittencourt Almeida Magalhaes, 3rd degree Black Belt, better known in Jiu-Jitsu scene as "Draculino".

    I don't see a big difference between Judo and BJJ.
  3. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 11:10am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    http://judoforum.com/index.php?showt...hl=Fusen&st=12

    http://judoforum.com/index.php?showtopic=25759&hl=KOSEN

    Just two of many. I suggest all of you interested in this topic to to www.judoforum.com and use the search function. There are several people there who actually speak Japanses, have lived or live in Japan, have studied Judo for decades, and actually provide reference via experience or real scholarly research of original source documents.

    Regards,

    Ben Reinhardt
  4. ChickenBeakFist is offline
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    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 11:21am


     Style: Hillbilly Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by War Wheel View Post
    Its a reasonable question, and it doesn't matter if it comes from Gokor, or Bobby Orr.
    It's only a reasonable question to someone for whom martial arts are primarily an intellectual exercise. If you spend more time training and less time sitting around stroking your beard you may come to the conclusion that semantics don't mean a whole helluva lot in a fight.
  5. Matt Phillips is offline
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 11:29am

    supporting member
     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ChickenBeakFist View Post
    It's only a reasonable question to someone for whom martial arts are primarily an intellectual exercise. If you spend more time training and less time sitting around stroking your beard you may come to the conclusion that semantics don't mean a whole helluva lot in a fight.
    WTF?! How do you get from "WW doesn't train Judo." to "WW doesn't train anything"? Demeaning a scholarly interest in martial arts is about as contrary to the spirit of these forums as I can imagine. Yes, I train. Usually boxing, sometimes SanDa. I spar and roll at TD's. Next.

    The history of martial arts is necessarily an intellectual exercise, except for the part you have live through yourself.

    What's the point? The point is of no return. And you've just reached it.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  6. kwan_dao is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 11:30am


     Style: sambo, stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ChickenBeakFist View Post
    Actually, it's not. Trying to pass yourself off as an authority on a martial art while having no rank or experience in said martial art is the very essence of Bullshido.
    Congratulations! You just managed to break the legitimacy of 99.99% of all historians worldwide. We have a winner!

    Claiming that one would need any degree in a martial art to openly discuss its history (or even technical aspects) is ridiculous.

    I am just reading a good (well researched and yet interesting) book on pre-republic roman warfare. Guess I will claim a refund, as the scholars who wrote the articles within definitly never held any rank in the legion. BTW: Judging from the pictures, some of those guys would definitly not be able to even lift a complete set of Hoplite arms and armor, less even move with it... slimey frauds!

    Just out of couriosity: The argument you used (basically "you are not one of us and thus are not allowed to discuss about/with us") is most often brought forward by cultleaders/-members, to defend themselves against criticism. Are you aming at making Judo a cult or something?
  7. Mtripp is offline
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    Choked out by Gene Lebell

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 11:36am

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     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Guys, ease up, they are still shooting people in Iraq...

    We can disagree without being disagreeable. This is an interesting subject; FYI, its nice to see you here Ben.
  8. Matt Phillips is offline
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 11:43am

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     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I found this well written article at: http://www.kobukaijujitsu.com/sensei6.html
    from which I quote
    Quote Originally Posted by JuJitsuAndNeWaza
    Ground grappling is as old as man himself. It is a natural outcome in a fight. If an opponent is not rendered unconscious from an initial blow or throw, then the fight will certainly continue on the ground. Certainly, no one person is responsible for the creation of newaza (ground work). As seen here in the Beni-Hasan tomb in Egypt, ground fighting has been around for thousands of years. Also note the greek wrestlers on the piece of pottery - engaged in ground wrestling.
    The ancient Jujutsu styles also had ground fighting, but not so much in the sense of wrestling or newaza as it is today. Ryu such as Takenouchi-Ryu and Yoshin-Ryu had disarming techniques (kansetsu) which focused on breaking the bones in the arm so that the soldier could no longer wield a sword or spear. There were also techniques resembling modern Hadake Jime (naked choke) which attacked the Kobuto (helmet) in order to break the neck. The kenjutsu (sword) schools often practiced positions like open guard and do shime (guard) and mune gatame (chest lock) when the fight went to the ground, although they were more focused on how not to get stabbed with a katana (sword) or tanto (knife). After the dissolution of the Samurai class in the 1800's, schools began to focus more on empty hand arts - and two schools in particular had a large body of newaza techniques - namely Fusen-Ryu and Jikishin-Ryu.
    Fusen-Ryu Jujutsu was founded by Takeda Motsuge in the early 1800's. Motsuge was born in 1794 in Matsuyama Japan. He studied jujutsu since a young age and by his late teens was considered a shihan and was teaching in Aki. He had studied Nanba Ippo-Ryu from Takahashi Inobei. He also studied Takenouchi, Sekiguchi, Yoshin, Shibukawa, and Yagyu-Ryu during his lifetime. As his style came together at about the same time as the dissolution of the Samurai class, it developed mostly toward unarmed combat. Fusen-Ryu finally became an art that focused almost exclusively on ground fighting.(this may have only been in several branch schools, as certain other branch schools of Fusen-Ryu still exist today, and they do not focus on newaza).

    Around the turn of the 20th century, the Fusen-Ryu master Mataemon Tanabe challenged a new jujutsu master to the area - Kano Jigoro. His new jujutsu style had challenged several of the old style Jujutsu schools to contest and had beaten them easily. So Mataemon Tanabe's school fought Kano's school and won every match - not trying to throw, but going right to the ground and doing armlocks, leg locks, chokes, etc. Thus was the real birth of newaza as a science. Kano was so fascinated with the ease his judoka were beaten that he persuaded (and perhaps paid) Tanabe to reveal the core of his technical strategy. Over the next few years, Kano assigned several of his top students to focus exclusively on this newaza. Soon, newaza was "absorbed" as part of the Judo syllabus, and Judo began to spread across the world.

    After having several of his top students become newaza experts, Kano thought it a good idea to use this type of Judo in the school system. As the matches ended in submission instead of serious injury, it would be seen more in a sportive way. So in 1914 he organized the All Japan High School championships at Kyoto Imperial University. He called this sportive style Kosen. By 1925 so much emphasis was on newaza - because of its success in contest that Kano had to make some new Judo rules limiting the amount of time the Judoka could stay on the ground. This Kosen Rule continued into the 1940's, stating Shiai had to be 70% standing and 30% ground fighting. This led to an early split in the Kodokan Judo movement. Many of those Judoka whom Kano had set to master newaza, had spent time inventing new series of movements, escapes, and submissions. They and their students were now dominating even the Kodokan contests. There was so much negativity with this, that Kano sent many of them abroad to teach Judo elsewhere. He was very aware that they would not be easily defeated no matter where they went, and he also smartly removed the challenge they presented in Japan. Some of the known Kosen Judoka were Yamashita, Hirata, Tomita, Yokoyama and Maeda.
    Jikishin-Ryu Jujutsu was founded by Terada Kanemon Masashige in the mid 1600's. Masashige was born in 1616, and he studied Teishin-Ryu with his father and grandfather who were masters. There were already ground techniques in this art. Later he studied Kito-Ryu, which focuses on throwing from Ibaraki Sensai, and Ryoi Shinto-Ryu with Fukuno Masakatsu. Masashige and following generations developed many techniques that resemble sequences from modern Judo - grapple, throw, ground position, and submission. Jikishin-Ryu actually called its art Judo 168 years before Kano used the term for his art.


    Kosen Judo has only continued in a few places. One example is Hirata Kanae's dojo is in Japan. He died in 1998, but the dojo still continues. Then there is Brazil, which started with Maeda. Mitsuyo Maeda who began training in Judo in 1897, and became one of the troublesome Kosen Judoka who was sent abroad with Tsunejiro Tomita. Traveling in the US, Maeda outshone his senior Tomita, defeating wrestlers and fighters that had beaten Tomita. Tomita and Maeda went their separate ways - with Maeda going onto the early fighting circuit for money. He even travelled to Europe where he lost the only two matches of his life against a Catch Wrestler. He spent extra time with the wrestler learning some of those techniques. Finally in 1915 Maeda settled in Brazil where he taught Carlos Gracie, the son of a local politician. Carlos Gracie and his brothers adopted the Kosen Judo techniques and developed them further during the 20th century into what came to be known as Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.

    Kosen Judo is still taught at 5 universities in Japan, but especially in Kyoto (where the author has trained in Kosen Judo). A Judo or jujutsu practitioner would see the training simply as Judo, with an emphasis on Hikikomi - or pulling your opponent to the ground.
    While not exaustive, it does lend support to the history I laid out earlier. I have never read it before today.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  9. Mas is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 11:45am


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The link between Judo and Tenjin-Shinyo-Ryu, Kito-Ryu, and Fusen-Ryu, is interesting, however there are very few English sources that treat it with any kind of scholarship.

    Go over to Judoforum and search/ask. Here on Bullshido, likely you will not get a good answer. It would be helpful to cite your sources straightaway so that they may be refuted or modified.

  10. Matt Phillips is offline
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 11:49am

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     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mas View Post
    The link between Judo and Tenjin-Shinyo-Ryu, Kito-Ryu, and Fusen-Ryu, is interesting, however there are very few English sources that treat it with any kind of scholarship.

    Go over to Judoforum and search/ask. Here on Bullshido, likely you will not get a good answer. It would be helpful to cite your sources straightaway so that they may be refuted or modified.
    It is a sign of my n00bishness with this subject that i didn't realize the history I cited was in dispute. I have mentioned some of them on this forum before and not had them challenged. I am all about citing sources when necessary.

    I don't post on Judoforum because I am not a Judoka.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
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