222497 Bullies, 4129 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 11 to 20 of 150
Page 2 of 15 FirstFirst 12 345612 ... LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. Matt Phillips is online now
    Matt Phillips's Avatar

    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Bahstun
    Posts
    9,480

    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 9:32am

    supporting member
     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    Uh, OK.

    A) References?

    B) Read the dozen BJJ ?= Judo threads on the site

    C) Kano's opinion was that one should learn throwing first, then groundwork, because he saw that as the easier path. I see this born out regularly on this site. People who learn throwing before groundwork have a set of powerful throws, and can develop sick groundwork. Those who learn groundwork first often rely on a different set of takedowns and sacrifice throws that resemble their existing groundwork, instead of learning the new skillset. If you disagree, fine. But it was a valid choice for curriculum.

    D) Kuzushi is a major part of judo, but if you read Kano's book, he clearly lays out a number of different principles that make up judo. Maximum efficiency, minimum effort is certainly more central.
    I can provide some references for the above, but it would help if you could indicate which aspects of it you would like to see supported. I have pretty much just stated the common history of the events in question, and then offered an opinion.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  2. 1point2 is offline
    1point2's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    4,103

    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 9:35am

    Join us... or die
     Style: 剛 and 柔

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't understand what histories of BJJ and Judo you're basing your argument on.

    I also don't know whose BJJ = Judo position you're arguing against.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
  3. Matt Phillips is online now
    Matt Phillips's Avatar

    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Bahstun
    Posts
    9,480

    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 9:51am

    supporting member
     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm not arguing against anyone in particular, and I certainly don't want to single anyone out for what might be seen as an attack. I am simply asking if it is fair (and accurate) to credit Kano and Judo with providing the foundation for BJJ.

    Let me just list out the facts from the historical record I referred to, and you can tell me which ones you think require further support.

    Kano's original formulation of Judo did not include its Ne Waza techniques yet.

    Kano's students famously defeated all other invited styles of JJJ in a series of matches organized by the Police.

    Proctitioners of Fusen-ryu defeated several Judoka in challenge matches.

    These matches happen after the matches at the police academy.

    After the defeat of his students Kano encorporated Ne Waza from Fusen-ryu into Kodokan Judo.

    Many Judoka becan to use the new techniques to win Judo competitions.

    Kano established Kosen Judo and the 7 University system, and modified the practice of Judo (outside these venues) to reduce the application of Ne Waza to Judo competition.

    Kano sends several Ne Waza specialists, including Maeda, abroad as embassadors of the sport.

    Maeda teaches Kosen Judo techniques to Carlos Gracie.

    Just bold the entries you would like references for, or indicate any other part of what I wrote that I may have ommitted.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  4. 1point2 is offline
    1point2's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    4,103

    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 9:57am

    Join us... or die
     Style: 剛 and 柔

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by War Wheel View Post
    I'm not arguing against anyone in particular, and I certainly don't want to single anyone out for what might be seen as an attack. I am simply asking if it is fair (and accurate) to credit Kano and Judo with providing the foundation for BJJ.

    Let me just list out the facts from the historical record I referred to, and you can tell me which ones you think require further support.

    Kano's original formulation of Judo did not include its Ne Waza techniques yet.

    Kano's students famously defeated all other invited styles of JJJ in a series of matches organized by the Police.

    Proctitioners of Fusen-ryu defeated several Judoka in challenge matches.

    These matches happen after the matches at the police academy.

    After the defeat of his students Kano encorporated Ne Waza from Fusen-ryu into Kodokan Judo. My impression was that judo had limited newaza before Fusen-ryu. I could be wrong.

    Many Judoka becan to use the new techniques to win Judo competitions.

    Kano established Kosen Judo and the 7 University system, and modified the practice of Judo (outside these venues) to reduce the application of Ne Waza to Judo competition. I disagree with the motivation, but that's hairsplitting on my part.

    Kano sends several Ne Waza specialists, including Maeda, abroad as embassadors of the sport.

    Maeda teaches Kosen Judo techniques to Carlos Gracie.

    Just bold the entries you would like references for, or indicate any other part of what I wrote that I may have ommitted.
    Regardless of the timeline in Japan, the Gracies learned judo from Maeda. (My understanding, contrary to Mr. Tripp's, is that judo was still referred to by many as Kano Jujitsu, thus, GJJ instead of Gracie Judo)

    Maeda was more newaza-focused than many others, and the Gracies took that focus even further. IMO, once GJJ came to America, that focus on groundwork became even more pronounced, which can be seen in the development of sport-only BJJ, as well as specific techniques like upside-down guard and other fairly sport-specific techniques.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
  5. Mtripp is offline
    Mtripp's Avatar

    Choked out by Gene Lebell

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Grand Blanc, MI
    Posts
    3,276

    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 10:06am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I will say again that the only reason why Madea would have used the term "jujitsu" was to avoid the Kodokan ban on prize fighting. It needs to be remembered that Kimura himself was kicked out of the Kodokan for years because he fought for money.

    Moreover, we have Madea's letters home and to the Kodokan about his time in Brazil and he uses the term "Judo" not "Kano Jujitsu." After the 1886 police matches Kano insisted his style be called "Judo" as he felt it was the superior form and the term should be used to set him apart from others.

    Is BJJ Judo? Once again we need to define some terms. Olympic Judo? Sport Judo as put forth by the IJF? Or the whole of Kodokan Judo?

    Kano's problem with ground work was he felt it dangerous in that "real fight" thing that comes up so much. The truth is the Fusen-ryu people threw a curve ball at him (pulling guard) and the Judo guys got their butt's kicked due to it. In as much as Kano wanted to be able to defeat all comers, his people studied and trained in those methods.

    HOWEVER, when you remember that matches in those days had a one hour time limit, you see that there were NO stand up rules or "anti" ne-waza feelings. It was not until Judo became more of a spectator sport that changes were made to "keep the action going" which is not much different than MMA rules today.

    It is more correct to say that BJJ and Olympic Judo BOTH came from the same source, Kodokan Judo; however they are two very different sports today and played in very different ways.
  6. BKR is online now
    BKR's Avatar

    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry, Idaho
    Posts
    4,166

    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 10:18am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by War Wheel View Post
    I know this has become the received wisdom, but I have a small problem with this. Kano's origianal Judo did not include the techniques that BJJ is based on. The signature Ne Waza of Judo was added later when Kano incorporated ground techniques from Fusen-ryu. The famous victories of Judo over other JJJ systems in the Police Academy challenge matches were won before these techniques were part of the system. Kano's motivation for bringing in fusen-ryu's Ne Waza was pretty sensible. Fusen-ryu practitioners were defeating Judo players in challenge matches. While Kano did bring this aspect of the game into Judo, he was never entirely comfortable with the change, and took steps later in life to limit the role of Ne Waza in Judo, including the creation of Kosen Judo, and the establishment of the 7 university system. The marginalization of Ne Waza continues to this day in Olympic Judo, and I think it is clear that these are really two different systems that have been attempting to either co-exist or seperate since Kano brought them together.

    While it is true that Kosen Judo is the taproot of BJJ, Kosen Judo itself owes as much, if not more, to Takeda Motsuge and Fusen-ryu than it does to Kano and Kodokan Judo.

    Kano's invaluable contribution to matial arts was the Kazushi principle, and not the tradition of Ne Waza embodied in Judo and BJJ. IMO.
    First off, it is kuzushi, not kazushi.

    Physically, BJJ uses katame waza techniques identical to Kodokan Judo.

    Philosophically, BJJ and Kodokan Judo are in my opinion very different. That is to say, the primary difference is in that Kodokan Judo is a "do" in the sense of having a higher purpose(s) than simply effective fighting, be it on the ground or standing. This is well codified in Kodokan Judo, even though it is not necessarily always practiced with those aims in mind.

    Regarding the whole KOSEN Judo/BJJ link, it's pretty much an unproven hypothesis at best or uninformed speculation at worst.

    KOSEN Judo was not invented or created by Jigoro Kano. Kano did not found the Seven Sisters universities/technical schools and associated prep schools.

    Again, I ask for references for your post.

    K. Kashiwazaki has some interesting information regarding KOSEN Judo and the history of ne waza in Judo in his book "Oseakomi", which is published by Ippon Books. As I do not read or speak Japanese, it is the only solid English source of information on the subject that I know of.

    Regards,

    Ben Reinhardt
  7. ChickenBeakFist is offline
    ChickenBeakFist's Avatar

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Warm, Biscuity, West Virginia
    Posts
    839

    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 10:24am


     Style: Hillbilly Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by War Wheel View Post
    I can provide some references for the above, but it would help if you could indicate which aspects of it you would like to see supported. I have pretty much just stated the common history of the events in question, and then offered an opinion.
    I would prefer you provide your current rank, instructor, school, and time spent in training Judo, BJJ, or both
  8. BKR is online now
    BKR's Avatar

    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry, Idaho
    Posts
    4,166

    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 10:25am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by War Wheel View Post
    I can provide some references for the above, but it would help if you could indicate which aspects of it you would like to see supported. I have pretty much just stated the common history of the events in question, and then offered an opinion.
    All of it. This topic has been done over and over again quite a bit. We did it on the old UG. Ask Mark Tripp, he was front and center in the debate. What you wrote looks to me to be an amalgamation of several sources I have seen quoted over the years.

    Plus, if you have verifiable references, I'd like to see them, as the topic is of interest to me.

    It's an interesting historical topic, but I think to have a meaningful discussion, sources of information need to be shown. But it's your thread, I won't ask for references again after this post.
  9. Matt Phillips is online now
    Matt Phillips's Avatar

    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Bahstun
    Posts
    9,480

    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 10:40am

    supporting member
     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ChickenBeakFist View Post
    I would prefer you provide your current rank, instructor, school, and time spent in training Judo, BJJ, or both
    I think that is quite unfair. I have been reading up a bit on the history, trying to become more informed about the subject, which I think is the responsibility of anyone that wants to participate in a discussion about Judo. I don't need rank in Judo or anything else to ask a question, just as one does not need to be an artist to study art history, or a soldier to study military history.

    I do not have any rank in BJJ either, but I did begin my study of it fairly early relative to the rest of you (witnter 1994), and I followed its development in the US very closely. I know much more about the history of BJJ than I do about the history of Judo. Hence the reading up. Hence the emergence of my question.

    I am not trying to flog a dead horse from the UG or anywhere else. The question just occured to me the other day.

    I am not at home, so I will have to dig up references from the web. If that ends up being inadequate, I will use non web sources where need be.

    And here I thought Saku was named Kazushi because he was 'unballanced'
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  10. ChickenBeakFist is offline
    ChickenBeakFist's Avatar

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Warm, Biscuity, West Virginia
    Posts
    839

    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 10:48am


     Style: Hillbilly Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by War Wheel View Post
    I think that is quite unfair
    Actually, it's not. Trying to pass yourself off as an authority on a martial art while having no rank or experience in said martial art is the very essence of Bullshido.
Page 2 of 15 FirstFirst 12 345612 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.