6/30/2009 9:36am, #141
Well... let me try it this way.
If anyone reading this has been to my clinics, and knows either Judo or BJJ...
...did I show you something you didn't see before?
Does my inside left grip change things, or, is Uchi Mata still Uchi Mata?
Is it still Uchi Mata if I pull them to my chest rather than "wheel" them over?
Are we, perhaps, missing the context that while the finish was the same, the road to get there was not?
6/30/2009 9:44am, #142
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I don't think anyone is disputing that the vast majority of the techniques are exactly the same.Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie
KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao
In De Janerio, in blackest night,
Luta Livre flees the fight,
Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
6/30/2009 2:41pm, #143
I wish BJJ were Judo. That way, every time I got a shidou for an old BJJ habit, I could say "but i'm doing proper Judo!".
"The only important elements in any society
are the artistic and the criminal,
because they alone, by questioning the society's values,
can force it to change."-Samuel R. Delany
RENDERING GELATINOUS WINDMILL OF DICKS
THIS IS GOING TO BE THE BEST NON-EUCLIDIAN SPLATTERJOUST EVER
It seems that the only people who support anarchy are faggots, who want their pathetic immoral lifestyle accepted by the mainstream society. It wont be so they try to create their own.-Oldman34, friend to all children
7/01/2009 4:30pm, #144
The poster, NBK, lives in Japan, and is fluent in Japanese, and is a Judo/Koryu budo/bujutsu/jujutsu researcher, as well as actively training in Judo and at least a couple of other koryu jujutsuy ryu-ha.
He lists the name of what appears to be the Japanese reference that has some information about Fusen Ryu matches with Kodokan judoka. Probably other info as well of interest, by NBK never provided any other translations that I could find.
The Japanese reference is from 1972, and was apparently written by a news sportswriter, who also seems to have had access to many old records in Japanese, such as records of old comps between the original Japanese "numbered" high schools, later to become the "Seven Sisters" of Kosen Judo rules fame. These were likely records from the old high schools themselves.
Anything you read on the Internet or in a book whatever that is not referenced should be taken with a grain of salt as to any definitive statements regarding the OP in this thread.
Not sure where they would have gotten that specific info, but in general it makes sense. If I find it I'll post it. But can't help you with this mag.
I have the part that might be of interest to you, so I'll just post it. Warning - a quick translation only, not definitive, paraphrasing, and skip not-related or redundant bits.
I think that the answer is that Tanabe developed his own techniques; his words below describe those techniques.
The summary translation comes from 工藤雷介 秘録 ： 日本柔道
Kudo Raisuke's "Japanese Judo: Hidden Records", 1972, pp66-68, 108-111. It's repetitive because it comes from 2 different theme areas in the book.
Hmmm... the footnotes superscript doesn't come out, but you can figure it out. Fair warning - the book is really interesting, written by a sportswriter IIRC, but there are few sources quoted.
And if you think this is missing link to BJJ, forget I ever said anything.
Tanabe Mataemon had fought Isogai Hajime twice, in Fukuoka and Kyoto, both times to a draw. But then the Kodokan got reinforcement in the form of Samura Kaichiro (ka-i-chi-ro), the eldest son of Samura (Seimon?) of Takeuchi Santo Ryu jujutsu . Having learned jujutsu from nine from his father, Samura’s newaza was ‘without parallel’ in the Kodokan. He joined the Kodokan in July 1898, was promoted to shodan in Oct 1898, and nidan in Oct 1899 on the occasion of his dispatch to the Butokukai in Kyoto as the assistant head of the Judo division, where Isogai was the first head of the Judo division. Despite being 9 years older, Isogai practiced newaza with Samura from the first day, seeking to learn how to counter the newaza techniques of the koryu jujutsu that was bound to challenge them.
In the fall of 1899, the city of Okayama planned a martial arts exhibition to be held in May 1900. Isogai was to represent the Butokukai, and Tanabe was to represent Fusen ryu. Quickly Tanabe went to the exhibition organizers with the idea of an ‘Isogai versus Tanabe’ match.
Isogai thought this ironic; Okayama, Hyogo Prefecture is the heart of Fusen ryu, Takeuchi ryu, and Kito ryu jujutsu. Loyal followers of koryu jujutsu abounded, and Isogai knew that the strong Tanabe would be a very tough competitor there. But Isogai spent several months focusing on newaza with Samura in preparation.
Tanabe was not a competitor to attempt to dominate by a single throw; rather, he was likened to a snake eating a toad – first, he would seize a single leg, then both, then finally envelope the entire body, letting fatigue wear down his opponent. Therefore, his chokes and reversals were skillful.
But in this match, presided over by Imai Kotaro of Takeuchi ryu, Isogai controlled his arms and legs, and stuck to Tanabe, not allowing him to execute reversals or chokes. The koryu jujutsu crowd, supporters of the local favorite Tanabe, called out “It’s time! Tie! Tie!” but the referee continued the match.
Tanabe began dragging himself, with Isogai, to go out of bounds. Isogai, knowing Tanabe’s strategy, pulled them both back in bounds with his whole body. “Time! Tie!” the referee called.
- The unnaturally strong Tanabe Mataemon
Tanabe was the 4th soke of Fusen ryu. The founder, “Motsugai” Yamato Sho, was famous for forcing the head of the Shinsengumi, Kondo Isamu, who was fully armed with a katana, to submit, although Motsugai was armed only with two begging bowls. Tanabe began training in Fusen ryu at the age of nine under his father, the third soke, receiving menkyo kaiden at the age of 22. In 1890 he moved to Tokyo, aged 21, and became a jujutsu instructor at the Tokyo Metropolitan Police. There for over ten years, beginning with Tobari Takizaburo, many Kodokan judoka experienced bitter defeats because of Tanabe’s newaza. Tobari, also a Tokyo Metropolitan Police jujutsu instructor, was taken down by Tanabe's newaza, then again in a shiai.
Tanabe said: (NOTE: paraphrased from 3 paragraphs, no citation)
Tobari had strong judo 。。。。 I had studied ‘鰻の抑え方’and ‘蛇の蛙をくわえる‘(‘eel osaekata’ and ‘the snake eats the frog’). The eel can quickly slip away, even when quickly pressed down by the crane. 。。。。。。。。。
The snake doesn’t eat the frog in a single gulp, but takes a single leg, then both, then the body, and slowly and inevitably swallows the entire frog. No matter what the frog does, it certainly cannot escape. In winning or losing in judo, eel osaekata and snake frog-eating, i.e., newaza are very important.
I respect Tobari and the others (like him). Even after they lost, they returned for the challenge. The other lot, when they lost, they didn’t have the guts to return for another shiai.
(My notes, not in the original text):
- Takeuchi Santo Ryu jujutsu was founded in current day Kumamoto, Kyushu. It was an amalgam of 2-3 branches of Takeuchi ryu jujutsu.
- See www.judoinfo.com/judan.htm
- This event is still held annually in the city of Okayama, and Takeuchi ryu figures prominently in it.
- Imai Kotaro, Isogai Hajime, and Tanabe Mataemon all participated in the first jujutsu seiteigata committee at the Butokukai in 1906; this meeting provided the core of what later became the Kodokan syllabus.
- The Shinsengumi was a quasi military unit formed by the Tokugawa Bakufu to maintain peace in the Osaka area in the latest days of their reign; its leaders were noted for their bloodthirstiness, and killed scores in sword battles.
- Tanabe died age 78 in 1946.
7/01/2009 5:04pm, #145
If one of your sources is this reference, War Wheel, I suggest you remove it from your l ist.
John Danaher's book "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu: Theory and Technique"
Totally bogus history regarding Fusen Ryu, Kosen Judo, and Judo newaza.
BJJ guys tell me it's a good BJJ book, though.
7/01/2009 5:29pm, #146
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7/01/2009 5:45pm, #147
7/02/2009 2:47am, #148
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- Nov 2008
I deliberately set back to watch this thread develop (and will keep doing so henceforth). Quite entertaining I have to say.
So you guys call shenannigangs on the commonly accepted history of Judo. An overview of which can be found here: http://www.bstkd.com/JudoHistory/HistoryOne.htm written by Kim Sol, from the Universty of Montana.
The above mentioned author published regularly in the "Bulletin of the association for scientific studies on Judo" btw, which is issued by the Kodokan itself, besides beeing a high ranking (4th Dan afaik) Judo instructor.
You guys claim superior knowledge, oozing "better than thou" from every pore, going on about how great Judoform is and how superior the information that can be found there.
Now finally one of you cares to elaborate on one of the sources of all your uberness.
Its an anonymous internet poster, who claims to live in Japan and beeing able to read Japanese. He also says he is a "researcher". This guy further claims to have read a book by a japanese sports-journalist (a true scholarly source). The book is in japanese and (as far as I gathered) no one else has seen it so far.
The title of said journalists book is something along the line of: "Judo:The hidden records". The author claims (according to the claims of our anonymous internet friend) to have had access to said "hidden records" and thus discovered the true history of Judo.
Which just happens to deviate from what the freaking Kodokan published in its freaking own scientific associations journal over the years.
Isn´t it funny how a legion of actual Japanese scientists would have missed those documents, but mr. japanese-sports-journalist found them?
The x-files of Judo. Thank you gentlemen. Please go on rambling now. Me is looking forward for proof that Jigoro Kano was an Alien. Hearing more on the ongoing development of your little cult would be nice as well.
Maybe you could dig yourself in somewhere in the desert (as with the advent of the B(JJ)east the end must be neigh) and wait for the return of Kano, who, according to his apostel Journalistius Omnicognescentus, promised you to come back in times of need?
Last edited by kwan_dao; 7/02/2009 2:53am at .
7/02/2009 8:14am, #149
My sharing of information was not an attempt to disrespect him in the least. He is one potential source of information, no more, no less, regarding scholarly research about the history of Judo. However, in no way does Kim Sol have the last word on the issue.
You seem to have some sort of issue with the sharing of information regarding the history of Judo. I shared another source of information with War Wheel. He seemed to appreciate the information.
Your issue seems to be something else, and I'm not sure what it is, maybe something to do with "traditional Judo"? Or are you a student of Kim Sol.
Regarding annonymous guys on Judo forum, what makes you think I and or others on Judo forum do not know the identities and backgrounds of the the posters? And that they are completely legitimate in their expertise or at least access to information on the matter at hand in this thread?
Regarding the sportswriter issue, he would be a journalist, who actually do do research. However, I can't vouch and did not vouch for the absolute quality of his research.
I suggest you go and revive the thread on Judo Forum and state your issues there, and discuss it with the folks who are most familiar with the subject. Same thing with the the Kodokan research papers, or whatever information you think you know.
Just because something is commonly accepted doesn't make it true, or somehow immune to further research, discussion, and revision. That happens all the time in science, history, etc.
7/02/2009 10:26am, #150
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