228774 Bullies, 5397 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 131 to 140 of 150
Page 14 of 15 FirstFirst ... 41011121314 15 LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. Joz is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Vermont
    Posts
    144

    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 8:41pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cdnronin View Post
    It took 10 pages for this gem to show up. what are the techniques that Fusen-ryu was supposed to have introduced to Judo, and how do they differ from the newaza techniques in the Katame no kata that was formulated roughly 20-30 years before the Fusen-ryu challenges? And how come the newaza I do now looks a lot like the techniques in the kata? why haven't they been superseded by the superior Fusen-ryu techniques? For reference
    http://judoinfo.com/katakata.htm

    PS War wheel. read some judo history, instead of bjj. Try to find an early copy of EJ Harrison's Fighting spirit of Japan. If you can find a copy of the 1913 edition, there's even a picture of Maeda, which doesn't appear in the more common 1955 edition.
    The only direct impact that Mataemon Tanabe had on the sylabus of Kodokan Judo I am aware of was in 1908 at the Dai Nippon Butokukai - Judo Kata Seitei-iin

    http://www.judo-educazione.it/video/...tefano_en.html

    "Tanabe Matauemon of Himeiji (Fusen-ryu, kyoshi) took his revenge pretending to include in Katame-no-kata a leg-leverage which he has used to wound an opponent. This technique provoked the exclusion of all the ashi-kwansetsu (leg-leverage) from tournaments, by suggestion of Kano to the crown prince. Kano accepted to include this technique just to accomplish the task of unifying the jiu-jutsu. "

    This seems to suggest that Ashi Garami made it into The expanded (from 10 to 15 techniques) Katame no Kata.
  2. Joz is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Vermont
    Posts
    144

    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 8:51pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by War Wheel View Post
    I certainly will begin to take a look at Judoforum, but I will not take my primary conversation there. I don't think there is any intelligent topic relevant to the martial arts or combat sports that has to be taken outside of Bullshido. I really don't.
    BS is a great egalitarian environment for conversation but Judo Forum has a greater knowledge base r.e Judo and its history...

    More importantly the truly authorative posters there will reference where the information they share comes from (CK sensei for one is a stickler for it)....
  3. Cy Q. Faunce is offline
    Cy Q. Faunce's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Minneapolis, MN
    Posts
    3,577

    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 8:54pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Finding You

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by War Wheel View Post
    I am less happy about the discouraging and/or sarcastic tone that quite a few of you have taken.
    I'm unsure if you're including me in that, since you did not name anyone, but if so, I don't think it's out of bounds to question your motives any more than it was for you to question the motives of others.

    You have a history of having a chip on your shoulder about judo on this forum, and I think it's coloring your reactions.
  4. ChickenBeakFist is offline
    ChickenBeakFist's Avatar

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Warm, Biscuity, West Virginia
    Posts
    839

    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 9:04pm


     Style: Hillbilly Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by War Wheel View Post
    I certainly will begin to take a look at Judoforum, but I will not take my primary conversation there. I don't think there is any intelligent topic relevant to the martial arts or combat sports that has to be taken outside of Bullshido. I really don't.

    I appreciate the call for references, and I realize that some of what I considered part of the agreed upon historical record is actually controversial to some, requiring additional references. I need to track down the original sources of the staements I made in the OP, and do some additional research on the central issue of Fusen-ryu's influence. I may mistake a debatable statement as fact and repeat it, but I am not the sort to let that stand after it has been pointed out to me.

    I appreciate the encouragement that many of you have offered, and I am sincerely interested in the subject.

    I am less happy about the discouraging and/or sarcastic tone that quite a few of you have taken. It is worth pointing out that, among the arts and sports that get an enthusiastic endorsement from the majority on this site, the Judo community has an unusually high number of folks that get pissy when "outsiders" try to enter the discussion.

    I see no point in:
    Making a federal case out of the (mis)spelling of foreign words

    Insisting people sign up for lessons before expressing an opinion, or even asking a question

    Suggesting people take such discussions off the site, and away from the rest of the community

    I get static every time I post on the subject of Judo. It is annoying, and it makes me less likely to ever take up the study of Judo, not because I don't like what it has to offer, but because I wonder what kind of Joinerism I will be signing up for.

    This is an interesting and informative discussion. I won't take it elsewhere. My query is not invalidated because I don't train Judo, or because I can't spell 'Kuzushi' correctly. I am not "stroking my beard instead of training". I am training in something else, and stroking my beard in my spare time.

    Some of you need to take a serious look at the unwelcoming attitude you are presenting to interested outsiders. Its pretty off putting. The rest of you are all right in my book.
  5. Matt Phillips is offline
    Matt Phillips's Avatar

    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Bahstun
    Posts
    9,756

    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 9:07pm

    supporting member
     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Cy,

    I don't think I was referencing you. I didn't go back and look at who made which comment, and I don't want to pick any individual fights over it. I certainly don't mind butting heads with you, as I know it doesn't end up anywhere bad.

    Do I have a chip on my shoulder re: Judo? I don't. I have a chip on my shoulder about the attitude I get from some people when I try to comment on Judo. I comment on anything/everything that interests me. Eventually I get around to Judo. Discussions lead to a clearer understanding for me, and a spirited exchange between others. If I had any agenda in posting this thread, it was to lure certain people into the discussion so I could pick their brains.

    While I may get annoyed with a certain attitude, this thread is mostly populated with posters I respect. I just think people need to think twice before getting up on such a high horse. It doesn't reflect well on the art/sport IMO.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  6. Matt Phillips is offline
    Matt Phillips's Avatar

    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Bahstun
    Posts
    9,756

    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 9:07pm

    supporting member
     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ChickenBeakFist View Post
    Lol .
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  7. Matt Phillips is offline
    Matt Phillips's Avatar

    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Bahstun
    Posts
    9,756

    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 9:36pm

    supporting member
     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Re: Judoforum. Thanks guys! Awesome.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  8. Matt Phillips is offline
    Matt Phillips's Avatar

    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Bahstun
    Posts
    9,756

    Posted On:
    6/30/2009 8:44am

    supporting member
     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I just want to say that after getting my toe into the water of more in-depth research into Judo history, I realize that there is a substantial difference between the actual historical record and the conventional wisdom on this subject inside the BJJ community. Much of what I had been reading on the subject is uncritical, and really ammounts to a sort of self-history of BJJ, and not serious scholarship. This material presents many "facts" which are actually in dispute, as part of the story, and this unjustified confidence in these aspects of the story gave me the impression that they were uncontrovertial to the Judo and JJJ comunities as well. This was a mistake on my part. Much reading awaits. Thanks, guys, for helping me to see my error.

    A different version of my question may still stand after I am better informed, but I suspect that so many of the presupposed "facts" are as yet unresolved, that it will have to be replaced with a better one.

    Something to think about:

    This much is not in dispute: That the Kodokan/Fusen-ryu matches that took place around 1900 were the impetus for Kano's reformation of Kodokan Ne Waza.

    What exactly did the Handa dojo members bring to the table if their techniques were not substantially different from those already practiced at the Kodokan? It is not sufficient to point to their guard-pulling (or butt-flopping) strategy, because the victory still must be won on the mat. By all accounts I have seen, the Kodokan did not win any of these matches (but may have drawn in some). If the techniques really were substantially the same, then one might look to the overall game, in much the same way that one might point to the differences between modern BJJ and modern Judo as being less in the lexicon of techniques and more in the syntax of what is expressed with them.

    I can not imagine Kano asking any of his students "If you're so inclined, you may want to study for a year or so at the Handa dojo and get a really good feel for flopping on your butt." there must have been more to it than the (similar) techniques and the (elementary) strategy.

    Better?
    Last edited by Matt Phillips; 6/30/2009 8:49am at .
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  9. Lu Tze is offline

    BJJ might make you a better ground fighter, but Judo will make you a better dancer.

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    W. Yorks, UK
    Posts
    5,017

    Posted On:
    6/30/2009 9:15am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The Fusen Ryu/Kodokan "matches" are in dispute. The only confirmed fights were with Tanabe himself, there's no evidence that his entire school soundly thrashed the Kodokan as implied by your statement, it's pure conjecture.

    What we do know: That Tanabe had matches, that he won using novel methods, and that he was asked to teach what he knew.

    We also know that modern day Fusen Ryu bares little resemblance to BJJ or Judo newaza, which begs the question, what did Tanabe teach? Some speculate that his particular school specialised in newaza, others that his strategy was devised specifically to defeat the Kodokan, and was not typical. That's just more bloody conjecture though.

    But again, the Fusen Ryu stuff is a red herring. Since Maeda's only exposure to it would've been through his Judo training, there's no direct link between Fusen Ryu and BJJ.
  10. Matt Phillips is offline
    Matt Phillips's Avatar

    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Bahstun
    Posts
    9,756

    Posted On:
    6/30/2009 9:27am

    supporting member
     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lu Tze View Post
    The Fusen Ryu/Kodokan "matches" are in dispute. The only confirmed fights were with Tanabe himself, there's no evidence that his entire school soundly thrashed the Kodokan as implied by your statement, it's pure conjecture.

    What we do know: That Tanabe had matches, that he won using novel methods, and that he was asked to teach what he knew.

    We also know that modern day Fusen Ryu bares little resemblance to BJJ or Judo newaza, which begs the question, what did Tanabe teach? Some speculate that his strategy was devised specifically to defeat the Kodokan, and was not one typical of his school. But again, that's just more bloody conjecture.

    But again, the Fusen Ryu stuff is a red herring. Since Maeda's only exposure to it would've been through his Judo training, there's no direct link between Fusen Ryu and BJJ.
    The fact of the matches is not in dispute. Notice I did not say which "Handa dojo members" participated. Some say it was just Tanabe, and some say it was his students. Some say it was both. What I actually said was
    This much is not in dispute: That the Kodokan/Fusen-ryu matches that took place around 1900 were the impetus for Kano's reformation of Kodokan Ne Waza.
    As for BJJ, I wasn't really talking about BJJ (yet). It is worth noting that Maeda was at the Kodokan when all this was happening. There is no reason to think that he did not have the same opportunity to study Tenabe's take on Ne Waza (or even with Tanabe himself) as anyone else there. He certainly demonstrated an interest in that part of the curriculum later in life, and was honored by the Kodokan for being a great Ne Waza man.

    I think its misleading to assume Kano had no up close exposure to Tanabe's innovations, whatever they were.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
Page 14 of 15 FirstFirst ... 41011121314 15 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.