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  1. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 6:32pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    Say what?
    A poster on Judo forum, a few years ago, used very similar wording in his posts regarding this very topic. His handle, and name, was/is Wayland.

    Thus, the question I asked.
  2. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 6:38pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Negation View Post
    It is quite fair to say that fusen was a contributor to the popularity of newaza and therefore was partly responsible for bjj through maeda. However, it is not the technical source for a majority of the Katamewaza of judo. The katame no kata was formulated before the fusen matches, if I recall correctly (1882).

    Knowing that, it seems likely that the fusen match merely forced kano to admit that newaza was important, and made many judo students very interested in the specialized methods of newaza the fusen school brought into the fold. Causing the newaza surge that kano reacted to with the ground limits.
    From Judoinfo.com. I can't find my copy of Draeger and Otaki's "Kodokan Judo Kata" book. Must have lent it out.

    "The Katame no Kata was developed at the Kodokan between 1884 and 1887 following the development of the Nage no Kata. It is composed of three groups of grappling techniques each with five representative techniques. Your goal is to acquire the methods of controlling your opponent in your practice of Katame No"
  3. Cdnronin is offline

    Ghost of Kawaishi

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 6:40pm


     Style: judo, parenting

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    [QUOTE=Blue Negation;2157639]It is quite fair to say that fusen was a contributor to the popularity of newaza and therefore was partly responsible for bjj through maeda. However, it is not the technical source for a majority of the Katamewaza of judo. The katame no kata was formulated before the fusen matches, if I recall correctly (1882).

    It took 10 pages for this gem to show up. what are the techniques that Fusen-ryu was supposed to have introduced to Judo, and how do they differ from the newaza techniques in the Katame no kata that was formulated roughly 20-30 years before the Fusen-ryu challenges? And how come the newaza I do now looks a lot like the techniques in the kata? why haven't they been superseded by the superior Fusen-ryu techniques? For reference
    http://judoinfo.com/katakata.htm

    PS War wheel. read some judo history, instead of bjj. Try to find an early copy of EJ Harrison's Fighting spirit of Japan. If you can find a copy of the 1913 edition, there's even a picture of Maeda, which doesn't appear in the more common 1955 edition.
  4. DCS is online now
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 7:00pm

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     Style: 柔道

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    I've never seen that before. And I bet the majority of BJJ students around the world have never heard of it either.
    And you'll win the bet.

    It is in the book* "Carlos Gracie: The Creator of a Dynasty" by Raila Gracie. No English translation available afaik.

    I somehow doubt the same can be said for BJJ, meaning no disrespect to BJJ or Carlos Gracie.
    You're probably correct.

    *Note: I'm still waiting for a copy of the book, the quote I provided was taken from Gracie Barra website and lacks proper context. Take it with a grain of salt.
  5. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 7:06pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    A poster on Judo forum, a few years ago, used very similar wording in his posts regarding this very topic. His handle, and name, was/is Wayland.

    Thus, the question I asked.
    Ah - no, I'm not Wayland.
  6. Cdnronin is offline

    Ghost of Kawaishi

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 7:16pm


     Style: judo, parenting

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    A poster on Judo forum, a few years ago, used very similar wording in his posts regarding this very topic. His handle, and name, was/is Wayland.

    Thus, the question I asked.
    If they could put up with some of the bullshit around here, several of the posters at judoforum would be a welcome contribution here. Tony Wolf was mentioned earlier. He seems to have a handle on a lot of historical stuff.
  7. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 8:10pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cdnronin View Post
    If they could put up with some of the bullshit around here, several of the posters at judoforum would be a welcome contribution here. Tony Wolf was mentioned earlier. He seems to have a handle on a lot of historical stuff.
    Tony Wolf went to the Judo Forum looking for information. The quote of his request was part of the post I posted.

    There is a lot of good info at Judo Forum, I encourage people interested to go there and use the search function.
  8. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 8:12pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Tony's also very active in the Bartitsu Society.

    Agreed re. JudoForum, it's a great resource.
  9. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 8:19pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    [quote=Cdnronin;2157784]
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Negation View Post
    It is quite fair to say that fusen was a contributor to the popularity of newaza and therefore was partly responsible for bjj through maeda. However, it is not the technical source for a majority of the Katamewaza of judo. The katame no kata was formulated before the fusen matches, if I recall correctly (1882).

    It took 10 pages for this gem to show up. what are the techniques that Fusen-ryu was supposed to have introduced to Judo, and how do they differ from the newaza techniques in the Katame no kata that was formulated roughly 20-30 years before the Fusen-ryu challenges? And how come the newaza I do now looks a lot like the techniques in the kata? why haven't they been superseded by the superior Fusen-ryu techniques? For reference
    http://judoinfo.com/katakata.htm

    PS War wheel. read some judo history, instead of bjj. Try to find an early copy of EJ Harrison's Fighting spirit of Japan. If you can find a copy of the 1913 edition, there's even a picture of Maeda, which doesn't appear in the more common 1955 edition.
    Judo Forum:
    Katame-no-Kata (Kata of Control)

    The Katame-no-Kata was established during 1884 and 1885. The kata consists of five representative techniques each from the Osae-komi Waza, Shime Waza and Kansetsu Waza, the aim being the mastery of the theoretical basis for executing and evading each technique.

    Together, the Nage-no-Kata and the Katame-no-Kata from the Randori-no-Kata. Their practice helps in the understanding and mastery of the theory behind randori techniques." (Jonesy)

    So, the techniques of Kodokan Judo Katame Waza were developed well before the age of Kosen rules Judo, or of the Fusen Ryu match(es).

    From several posts at Judoforum, it looks like what Tanabe brought to the table was a strategy to deal with the Kodokan fighters rather than an entire katame waza curriculum. BTW, there was no large scale dojo vs dojo challenge, but a few matches between Tanabe and a few Kodokan judoka.

    The strategy was to essentially sit down and refuse to engage in tachi waza, forcing the match to the ground and avoiding losing the match by being thrown.

    See, modern sport Judo has finally come full circle-manipulating the rules to advantage!
  10. Matt Phillips is offline
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 8:38pm

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     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I certainly will begin to take a look at Judoforum, but I will not take my primary conversation there. I don't think there is any intelligent topic relevant to the martial arts or combat sports that has to be taken outside of Bullshido. I really don't.

    I appreciate the call for references, and I realize that some of what I considered part of the agreed upon historical record is actually controversial to some, requiring additional references. I need to track down the original sources of the staements I made in the OP, and do some additional research on the central issue of Fusen-ryu's influence. I may mistake a debatable statement as fact and repeat it, but I am not the sort to let that stand after it has been pointed out to me.

    I appreciate the encouragement that many of you have offered, and I am sincerely interested in the subject.

    I am less happy about the discouraging and/or sarcastic tone that quite a few of you have taken. It is worth pointing out that, among the arts and sports that get an enthusiastic endorsement from the majority on this site, the Judo community has an unusually high number of folks that get pissy when "outsiders" try to enter the discussion.

    I see no point in:
    Making a federal case out of the (mis)spelling of foreign words

    Insisting people sign up for lessons before expressing an opinion, or even asking a question

    Suggesting people take such discussions off the site, and away from the rest of the community

    I get static every time I post on the subject of Judo. It is annoying, and it makes me less likely to ever take up the study of Judo, not because I don't like what it has to offer, but because I wonder what kind of Joinerism I will be signing up for.

    This is an interesting and informative discussion. I won't take it elsewhere. My query is not invalidated because I don't train Judo, or because I can't spell 'Kuzushi' correctly. I am not "stroking my beard instead of training". I am training in something else, and stroking my beard in my spare time.

    Some of you need to take a serious look at the unwelcoming attitude you are presenting to interested outsiders. Its pretty off putting. The rest of you are all right in my book.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
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