Originally Posted by BKR
Somebody has been scrounging around on Judo Forum.
Please cite your source as a courtesy to sam sensei. Unless you ARE sam sensei in which case I apologize.
Sorry I misunderstood that you were interested in inter-highschool judo matches in general and Kosen Judo in particular.
Two things - references I quoted above do not include any info before 1914 when Kyoto Univ. started, and have nothing to do with
people such as Tani/Uenishi/Miyake or people associated with Bartitsu. I doubt if they have anything to do with inter-scholastic matches
before 1914. Sep issue of HIDEN magazine has some article on Bartitsu. In my opinion, their contribution to combat arts (not judo as they were
jujutsu-ka) may be underestimated at home and overestimated abroad. Same could apply to many others who were not sent out by Kodokan.
Let me pick up some historical inter-scholastic judo-related events before Kosen.
1874 Keio Univ. started jujutsu
1882 Keio invited Sekiguchi Ryu
1883 Judo lectures started at Gakushuin
1885 Tokyo Univ. started Tenjin Shinyo Ryu
1887 Tokyo Univ. built judo dojo, Saigo to teach, later taken over by Tomita
1889 Keio to invite Yamashita as judo Shihan
1890 No1 highschool to make judo club
1891 No5 highschool to welcome Jigoro Kano as school master, Kimotsuke as judo instructor
1891 No1 highschool loses to Gakushuin in judo match
1893 No2 highschool made judo club
1893 Isogai appointed to No3 highschool as judo instructor
1894 Tokyo Teachers School to have judo dojo
1895 Sakujiro Yokoyama to become Shihan at No1 highschool
1898 Judo match between No1 and No2 highschool
1899 No1 highschool against No2
1900 Mitsuyo Maeda to teach at No1 highschool
1901 No3 highschool against Kanazawa Medical school
1902 No3 highschool against Keio Univ.
1906 No1 highschool against Tokyo Teachers school
1907 No4 against No6
1908 No6 against Kobe highschool of commerce
1909 No3 against No6
1910 No5 against No7
1910 No1 against No2
1910 Both Kanemitsu and Oda were born, later to become Kosen judo gurus
1911 Kodokan banned Ashi Garami
For your ref, numbered-highschools were upgraded to today`s universities.
No1 = Tokyo University
No2 = Tohoku University
No3 = Kyoto University
No4 = Kanazawa University
No5 = Kumamoto University
No7 = Kagoshima University
Each university may have some historical record in their library or in their school history which they usually have.
Here is a list of some Japanese language sources regarding KOSEN, via Judo Forum and sam sensei
Oct 8 2007, 03:08 PM
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QUOTE(Tony Wolf @ Oct 8 2007, 05:44 PM)
I'm researching the backgrounds of several of the pioneering Japanese "challenge wrestlers" who toured Europe and the USA during the early years of the 20th century. At this stage I'm concentrating on the training of Yukio Tani, Sadakazu Uyenishi and Taro Miyake as teenagers. I know that Tani and Miyake are said to have trained primarily in the Fusen-ryu and that Uyenishi is said to have trained primarily in the Tenshin-ryu.
Towards this project, I'm very interested in the inter-scholastic (especially high school and technical college) judo/jujitsu tournaments that seem to have been held in various parts of Japan from about the year 1890 onwards. My understanding is that the randori in these tournaments may have concentrated on, or been restricted to, ne-waza.
Part of my theory is that these types of tournaments may have formed the basis of the KOSEN judo competition format that was formalized by Jigoro Kano in 1914.
Any information on such tournaments (rules, training procedures, specific records, etc.) between 1890-1905 would be much appreciated.
I`m surprised to read "KOSEN judo competition format that was formalized by Jigoro Kano", as I think it is most unlikely. You could check with Kyoto University site to verify. Inter-scholastic tournaments after 1914 are KOSEN, but there had been already many such tournaments prior to 1914 when Kyoto Univ. started Kosen on their own initiative. I`m not able to find many sources of information on Kosen Judo but so far the following is what I know.
1) TOKON (fighting spirit) by Shuji Yumoto who was a journalist at Yomiuri Shimbun, 1972 and another TOKON Continued by the same author, both sell around JPY10,000 at Jimbocho, if you can find them. Both books contain almost all info on when, where and by whom Kosen matches were fought. The author being a journalist must have spent enormous time on digging into documents kept by more than 38 highschools across Japan. Very trustworthy and a must for anyone interested in the results of the tournaments.
2)Reprint KOSEN JUDO NO SHINZUI (Essence of Kosen Judo) by Kosen Judo Technical Study Group, which is only about techniques with pictures. You can find it anywhere as it is re-print.
3)Video by Nippon Budokan, featuring many well-known Senseis demonstrating techniques such as Masahiko Kimura, Tokio Hirano, Kanae Hirata etc. I`m sure you can find them easily.
4)KITA NO UMI (north sea) by a famous novelist Inoue , available only in Japanese, from where you find very vivid description of how Kosen students trained themselves. Author Inoue himself was a Kosen fighter.
5)I was given a book compiled by Kosen instructors, which contained the most interesting anecdotes about how students polished their newaza techniques, but I seem to have lost it.
6)You could write to Okayama Judo Federation in Japan where you might be able to find some information on Kosen by Sensei Kanemitsu. Okayama Prefecture in Japan is a birth place for Kito Ryu, Fusen Ryu and Takenouchi Ryu.
Organizations/persons actively promoting Kosen Judo are Newaza Kenkyukai, Sensei Okuda at Kyushu Univ., Kurimura Yoji Sensei in Kyoto, Kinjiro Mototani at Osaka Police, Sensei Takahama at Nagoya Univ.(also Aichi Police). Matsumura Sensei at Kodokan must know well about Kosen Judo as he once acted as Uke for the book written by Kanemitsu. Of course Okano and Kashiwazaki should have good knowledge of Kosen newaza. Other hidden documents, you should be able to find at 7 universities in Japan (Nagoya, Tokyo, Tohoku, Hokkaido, Kyushu, Osaka, Kyoto) such as old Kosen tournament rules.
Hope above of any help
Yes, and I assume that the judo dojo associated with Keio University taught one of those systems.
Originally Posted by Lu Tze
I'm not Sam - no discourtesy meant, I was just re-quoting the same JudoForum post as it was quoted during a similar discussion on the Bartitsu Forum.
Originally Posted by BKR
And what BJJ philosophically is about?
Originally Posted by BKR
Seiryoku Zenyo & Jita Kyoei worded differently?
Originally Posted by Carlos Gracie Sr. Direct disciple of Maeda, co-founder of BJJ
Really, I don't find abysmal differences between Kano and Carlos toughts.
Can we be sure Maeda only taught waza to Carlos, without instilling in the young brazillian Kano's philosophical underpinnings of the art?
Last edited by DCS; 6/29/2009 6:22pm at .
I know, it's just my fantasy. I'll never mention it again. Gotta go back to powerlifting instead of Judo.
Originally Posted by UpaLumpa
I did not know there is a Bartitsu Forum.
Originally Posted by DdlR
I think that references to sources are a good idea, although a pain in the butt in a forum like this. Remember, this thread will be used as gospel proof by someone that Fusen Ryu is the source of BJJ.
I've never seen that before. And I bet the majority of BJJ students around the world have never heard of it either.
Originally Posted by DCS
You can ask just about any judo student about the two main principles of Judo, and they will be able to tell you. They might not exactly understand them, but they will know them.
I somehow doubt the same can be said for BJJ, meaning no disrespect to BJJ or Carlos Gracie.
I find it highly unlikely that he would have left it out.....
Originally Posted by DCS
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