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  1. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 4:53pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Wayland, is that you?
    Say what?
  2. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 5:01pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Somebody has been scrounging around on Judo Forum.

    Please cite your source as a courtesy to sam sensei. Unless you ARE sam sensei in which case I apologize.

    Sorry I misunderstood that you were interested in inter-highschool judo matches in general and Kosen Judo in particular.
    Two things - references I quoted above do not include any info before 1914 when Kyoto Univ. started, and have nothing to do with
    people such as Tani/Uenishi/Miyake or people associated with Bartitsu. I doubt if they have anything to do with inter-scholastic matches
    before 1914. Sep issue of HIDEN magazine has some article on Bartitsu. In my opinion, their contribution to combat arts (not judo as they were
    jujutsu-ka) may be underestimated at home and overestimated abroad. Same could apply to many others who were not sent out by Kodokan.

    Let me pick up some historical inter-scholastic judo-related events before Kosen.
    1874 Keio Univ. started jujutsu
    1882 Keio invited Sekiguchi Ryu
    1883 Judo lectures started at Gakushuin
    1885 Tokyo Univ. started Tenjin Shinyo Ryu
    1887 Tokyo Univ. built judo dojo, Saigo to teach, later taken over by Tomita
    1889 Keio to invite Yamashita as judo Shihan
    1890 No1 highschool to make judo club
    1891 No5 highschool to welcome Jigoro Kano as school master, Kimotsuke as judo instructor
    1891 No1 highschool loses to Gakushuin in judo match
    1893 No2 highschool made judo club
    1893 Isogai appointed to No3 highschool as judo instructor
    1894 Tokyo Teachers School to have judo dojo
    1895 Sakujiro Yokoyama to become Shihan at No1 highschool
    1898 Judo match between No1 and No2 highschool
    1899 No1 highschool against No2
    1900 Mitsuyo Maeda to teach at No1 highschool
    1901 No3 highschool against Kanazawa Medical school
    1902 No3 highschool against Keio Univ.
    1906 No1 highschool against Tokyo Teachers school
    1907 No4 against No6
    1908 No6 against Kobe highschool of commerce
    1909 No3 against No6
    1910 No5 against No7
    1910 No1 against No2
    1910 Both Kanemitsu and Oda were born, later to become Kosen judo gurus
    1911 Kodokan banned Ashi Garami

    For your ref, numbered-highschools were upgraded to today`s universities.
    No1 = Tokyo University
    No2 = Tohoku University
    No3 = Kyoto University
    No4 = Kanazawa University
    No5 = Kumamoto University
    No6=Okayama University
    No7 = Kagoshima University
    Each university may have some historical record in their library or in their school history which they usually have.
  3. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 5:03pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Here is a list of some Japanese language sources regarding KOSEN, via Judo Forum and sam sensei

    http://judoforum.com/index.php?showtopic=20806&hl=Fusen

    Oct 8 2007, 03:08 PM
    Post #4


    Judo Forum Sankyu


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    QUOTE(Tony Wolf @ Oct 8 2007, 05:44 PM)
    Hi all,

    I'm researching the backgrounds of several of the pioneering Japanese "challenge wrestlers" who toured Europe and the USA during the early years of the 20th century. At this stage I'm concentrating on the training of Yukio Tani, Sadakazu Uyenishi and Taro Miyake as teenagers. I know that Tani and Miyake are said to have trained primarily in the Fusen-ryu and that Uyenishi is said to have trained primarily in the Tenshin-ryu.

    Towards this project, I'm very interested in the inter-scholastic (especially high school and technical college) judo/jujitsu tournaments that seem to have been held in various parts of Japan from about the year 1890 onwards. My understanding is that the randori in these tournaments may have concentrated on, or been restricted to, ne-waza.

    Part of my theory is that these types of tournaments may have formed the basis of the KOSEN judo competition format that was formalized by Jigoro Kano in 1914.

    Any information on such tournaments (rules, training procedures, specific records, etc.) between 1890-1905 would be much appreciated.

    My best,

    Tony


    Hello Tony,

    I`m surprised to read "KOSEN judo competition format that was formalized by Jigoro Kano", as I think it is most unlikely. You could check with Kyoto University site to verify. Inter-scholastic tournaments after 1914 are KOSEN, but there had been already many such tournaments prior to 1914 when Kyoto Univ. started Kosen on their own initiative. I`m not able to find many sources of information on Kosen Judo but so far the following is what I know.

    1) TOKON (fighting spirit) by Shuji Yumoto who was a journalist at Yomiuri Shimbun, 1972 and another TOKON Continued by the same author, both sell around JPY10,000 at Jimbocho, if you can find them. Both books contain almost all info on when, where and by whom Kosen matches were fought. The author being a journalist must have spent enormous time on digging into documents kept by more than 38 highschools across Japan. Very trustworthy and a must for anyone interested in the results of the tournaments.
    2)Reprint KOSEN JUDO NO SHINZUI (Essence of Kosen Judo) by Kosen Judo Technical Study Group, which is only about techniques with pictures. You can find it anywhere as it is re-print.
    3)Video by Nippon Budokan, featuring many well-known Senseis demonstrating techniques such as Masahiko Kimura, Tokio Hirano, Kanae Hirata etc. I`m sure you can find them easily.
    4)KITA NO UMI (north sea) by a famous novelist Inoue , available only in Japanese, from where you find very vivid description of how Kosen students trained themselves. Author Inoue himself was a Kosen fighter.
    5)I was given a book compiled by Kosen instructors, which contained the most interesting anecdotes about how students polished their newaza techniques, but I seem to have lost it.
    6)You could write to Okayama Judo Federation in Japan where you might be able to find some information on Kosen by Sensei Kanemitsu. Okayama Prefecture in Japan is a birth place for Kito Ryu, Fusen Ryu and Takenouchi Ryu.

    Organizations/persons actively promoting Kosen Judo are Newaza Kenkyukai, Sensei Okuda at Kyushu Univ., Kurimura Yoji Sensei in Kyoto, Kinjiro Mototani at Osaka Police, Sensei Takahama at Nagoya Univ.(also Aichi Police). Matsumura Sensei at Kodokan must know well about Kosen Judo as he once acted as Uke for the book written by Kanemitsu. Of course Okano and Kashiwazaki should have good knowledge of Kosen newaza. Other hidden documents, you should be able to find at 7 universities in Japan (Nagoya, Tokyo, Tohoku, Hokkaido, Kyushu, Osaka, Kyoto) such as old Kosen tournament rules.

    Hope above of any help
  4. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 5:10pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lu Tze View Post
    Please note that Kano would have been 14 at that time.

    Judo wasn't founded until 1882, and wasn't commonly referred to as Judo until sometime after that.

    What's confusing is that something called Judo did exist prior to the founding of the Kodokan, but it had/has no connection to Kano's system.
    Yes, and I assume that the judo dojo associated with Keio University taught one of those systems.
  5. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 5:18pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Somebody has been scrounging around on Judo Forum.

    Please cite your source as a courtesy to sam sensei. Unless you ARE sam sensei in which case I apologize.
    I'm not Sam - no discourtesy meant, I was just re-quoting the same JudoForum post as it was quoted during a similar discussion on the Bartitsu Forum.
  6. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 6:17pm

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     Style: 柔道

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    BJJ is not Kodokan Judo philosphically. It is BJJ. As I posted somewhere in this thread, character develpment via many activities is not unique to Judo. Nor do I deny that there may be some or even many BJJ teachers who see perfection of the individual part of BJJ.
    And what BJJ philosophically is about?

    Maybe

    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos Gracie Sr. Direct disciple of Maeda, co-founder of BJJ

    1. Be so strong that nothing can disturb the peace of your mind.

    2. Talk to all people about happiness, health, and prosperity.

    3. Give to all your friends the feeling of being valued.

    4. Look at things by the enlightened point of view and update your optimism on reality.

    5. Think only about the best, work only for the best, and always expect the best.

    6. Be as just and enthusiastic about others victories as you are with yours.

    7. Forget about past mistakes and focus your energy on the victories of tomorrow.

    8. Always make those around you happy and keep a smile to all people who talk to you.

    9. Apply the largest amount of your time on self-improvement and no time in criticizing others.

    10. Be big enough so you can feel unsatisfied, be noble enough so you can feel anger, be strong enough so you can feel fear, and be happy enough so you can feel frustrations.

    11. Hold a good opinion about your self and communicate that to the world, but not through dissonant words but through good works.

    12. Believe strongly that the world is in your side, as long as you stay loyal to the best of yourself.

    Seiryoku Zenyo & Jita Kyoei worded differently?

    Really, I don't find abysmal differences between Kano and Carlos toughts.

    Can we be sure Maeda only taught waza to Carlos, without instilling in the young brazillian Kano's philosophical underpinnings of the art?
    Last edited by DCS; 6/29/2009 6:22pm at . Reason: format
  7. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 6:22pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by UpaLumpa View Post
    Oh come now. We all "know" that Helio modified the inelegant techniques of JuJutsu/Judo so that they weren't reliant on the massive strength advantage required (as demonstrated by those muscle bound japanese that man-handled carnie workers in the US).This was because Helio was sickly and he couldn't even do the techniques.

    This is common knowledge.
    I know, it's just my fantasy. I'll never mention it again. Gotta go back to powerlifting instead of Judo.
  8. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 6:26pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    I'm not Sam - no discourtesy meant, I was just re-quoting the same JudoForum post as it was quoted during a similar discussion on the Bartitsu Forum.
    I did not know there is a Bartitsu Forum.

    I think that references to sources are a good idea, although a pain in the butt in a forum like this. Remember, this thread will be used as gospel proof by someone that Fusen Ryu is the source of BJJ.
  9. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 6:30pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    And what BJJ philosophically is about?

    Maybe



    Seiryoku Zenyo & Jita Kyoei worded differently?

    Really, I don't find abysmal differences between Kano and Carlos toughts.

    Can we be sure Maeda only taught waza to Carlos, without instilling in the young brazillian Kano's philosophical underpinnings of the art?
    I've never seen that before. And I bet the majority of BJJ students around the world have never heard of it either.

    You can ask just about any judo student about the two main principles of Judo, and they will be able to tell you. They might not exactly understand them, but they will know them.

    I somehow doubt the same can be said for BJJ, meaning no disrespect to BJJ or Carlos Gracie.
  10. Mtripp is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 6:32pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    And what BJJ philosophically is about?

    Maybe



    Seiryoku Zenyo & Jita Kyoei worded differently?

    Really, I don't find abysmal differences between Kano and Carlos toughts.

    Can we be sure Maeda only taught waza to Carlos, without instilling in the young brazillian Kano's philosophical underpinnings of the art?
    I find it highly unlikely that he would have left it out.....

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