226132 Bullies, 3893 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 101 to 110 of 150
Page 11 of 15 FirstFirst ... 7891011 12131415 LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. 1point2 is online now
    1point2's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    4,120

    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 4:09pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 剛 and 柔

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by UpaLumpa View Post
    Fabulous point. Those who discount the role of kuzushi in ne waza do not understand what they are watching.

    Yes, BUT you are ignoring that one has this aspect explicitly laid out.
    Discipline, respect and loyalty are implicitly there in bjj. They are explicit goals of judo.
    Point taken.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
  2. BKR is offline
    BKR's Avatar

    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry, Idaho
    Posts
    4,590

    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 4:13pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    Good questions. AFAIK what we refer to today as "KOSEN" judo (and that system of naming schools per se) only dates back to 1914, but there definitely were the equivalent of high schools and technical colleges in Japan dating back at least as far as the 1890s. Some of them were private schools, others were public.

    We know that, for example, Yukio Tani and Sadakazu Uyenishi were already highly proficient at competitive ne-waza when they arrived in London c1900, and they were only nineteen and twenty years old, respectively.

    There are records of intra-mural jujitsu tournaments taking place at the following schools (note that the high schools were originally designated with numbers):

    1891 No1 high school loses to Gakushuin in judo match
    1893 No2 high school founds judo club
    1893 Isogai appointed to No3 high school as judo instructor
    1894 Tokyo Teachers School to have judo dojo
    1895 Sakujiro Yokoyama to become Shihan at No1 high school
    1898 Judo match between No1 and No2 high school
    1899 No1 high school against No2
    1900 Mitsuyo Maeda to teach at No1 high school
    1901 No3 high school against Kanazawa Medical school
    1902 No3 high school against Keio Univ.
    1906 No1 high school against Tokyo Teachers school
    1907 No4 against No6
    1908 No6 against Kobe high school of commerce
    1909 No3 against No6
    1910 No5 against No7
    1910 No1 against No2

    The numbered-high schools were later "upgraded" to today`s universities.

    No1 = Tokyo University
    No2 = Tohoku University
    No3 = Kyoto University
    No4 = Kanazawa University
    No5 = Kumamoto University
    No6=Okayama University
    No7 = Kagoshima University

    Also, there are records of a judo dojo being established at Keio University as early as 1874.

    Thus, the theory is that in 1914, Professor Kano formalized a competitive intra-mural judo/jujitsu format that had been evolving (more or less informally) at the high school and technical college level since the 1890s.
    That's interesting information, thanks.

    However, I do not think that Kano himself formalized the KOSEN set of rules or competition system. I would say it's a working hypothesis.

    Any "judo" in 1874 was not Kodokan Judo. The term "judo" was used I think by Jikishin Ryu and Kito Ryu. Kano changed "kano ryu ju jutsu" to Kodokan Judo to distinguish it from the others.
  3. BKR is offline
    BKR's Avatar

    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry, Idaho
    Posts
    4,590

    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 4:17pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by War Wheel View Post
    Ah, the sweet smell of reasoning.

    Does anyone have any information (or opinion) on the modifications that were made to the competitive Judo format after Ne Waza first started to dominate?
    Well, when and how did ne waza start to dominate? Did it "dominate"?

    I covered part of this in another post, and used K. Kashiwazaki for a reference.
  4. DdlR is offline
    DdlR's Avatar

    Light Heavyweight

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    4,774

    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 4:23pm

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    That's interesting information, thanks.

    However, I do not think that Kano himself formalized the KOSEN set of rules or competition system. I would say it's a working hypothesis.

    Any "judo" in 1874 was not Kodokan Judo. The term "judo" was used I think by Jikishin Ryu and Kito Ryu. Kano changed "kano ryu ju jutsu" to Kodokan Judo to distinguish it from the others.
    I don't know which type of judo was associated with Keio University in 1874, only that there is a record of a judo dojo there at that time.
  5. BKR is offline
    BKR's Avatar

    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry, Idaho
    Posts
    4,590

    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 4:33pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    This was my original thought as well.

    @BKR: BJJ was designed, as per Helio, to allow a smaller person to defeat a larger, stronger one. Pedagogical methods and character-improvement-systems are certainly high on the list of a number of BJJ teachers. I would add Ribiero to that list; he has a podcast on Youtube where he talks about requiring students to embody jiujitsu, to know the history, to know judo throws, to act right, etc.

    There are plenty of judo schools that have lost this mindset, just like there are many BJJ schools that aren't really about it.

    Helio was taught the techniques Kodokan Judo, which is all about smaller defeating larger/stronger opponents.

    BJJ is not Kodokan Judo philosphically. It is BJJ. As I posted somewhere in this thread, character develpment via many activities is not unique to Judo. Nor do I deny that there may be some or even many BJJ teachers who see perfection of the individual part of BJJ.
  6. BKR is offline
    BKR's Avatar

    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry, Idaho
    Posts
    4,590

    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 4:41pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by War Wheel View Post
    I don't think it is as simple as that. Kano revolutionized the way JJJ Tachi Waza was trained. I put this thread up primarily to see if there is evidence that he did the same thing with the Ne Waza. Bear in mind that the Fusen-ryu practitioners who were defeating Kano's students were not one of the dead classical schools of JJJ, but another competing "modern" style.



    Hey, I'm not a BJJ guy looking to make his art "special". I'm a neutral 3rd party looking to get some insight into the relationship between two arts that I don't train in.

    The implication that Kano's inclusion of Fusen Ne Waza implies that he was happy about doing it is misleading. Kano added that material to his system because Judo would have been displaced the position it won in the police academy matches, if he did not. Tanabe's students were winning 100% of the challenge matches, and the only way to regain the competitive advantage was to learn their game.

    To me it looks like a case of "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em, but you don't have to be happy about it."
    This is all apparently speculation or speculative synthesis from you. That's OK, however, I'd really like to know upon what you are basing your hypothesis. Making sweeping statement such as the above really needs some backup, War Wheel.

    I'd like to know some of your sources for my own information, as you seem to have quite a bit of background knowledge/information. Do you by chance read/write/speak Japanese? Or have you paid a translator?
  7. BKR is offline
    BKR's Avatar

    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry, Idaho
    Posts
    4,590

    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 4:44pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    I know that the general wisdom is that judo's ne-waza was based on Fusen-ryu, but as I suggested earlier, that may be a red herring. Last I looked into this (which was a while ago), there wasn't much evidence showing that Fusen-ryu, per se, emphasized ne-waza. That's part of the reason I'm interested in Tanabe's association with the Handa dojo, which evidently did emphasize ne-waza.
    Wayland, is that you?
  8. UpaLumpa is offline
    UpaLumpa's Avatar

    Exasperated.

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Descending into absurdity
    Posts
    6,977

    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 4:48pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Helio was taught the techniques Kodokan Judo, which is all about smaller defeating larger/stronger opponents.
    Oh come now. We all "know" that Helio modified the inelegant techniques of JuJutsu/Judo so that they weren't reliant on the massive strength advantage required (as demonstrated by those muscle bound japanese that man-handled carnie workers in the US).This was because Helio was sickly and he couldn't even do the techniques.

    This is common knowledge.
  9. Lu Tze is offline

    BJJ might make you a better ground fighter, but Judo will make you a better dancer.

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    W. Yorks, UK
    Posts
    5,018

    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 4:48pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    I don't know which type of judo was associated with Keio University in 1874, only that there is a record of a judo dojo there at that time.
    Please note that Kano would have been 14 at that time.

    Judo wasn't founded until 1882, and wasn't commonly referred to as Judo until sometime after that.

    What's confusing is that something called Judo did exist prior to the founding of the Kodokan, but it had/has no connection to Kano's system.
  10. BKR is offline
    BKR's Avatar

    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry, Idaho
    Posts
    4,590

    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 4:49pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    On another note, how did I get a "Judo Black Belt" tag over my posts. I don't recall telling anyone about it, although Mark Tripp knows I am, as do perhaps some other as yet unidentified posters.

    Regards,

    BKR, AkA Ben Reinhardt

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.