6/29/2009 3:47pm, #91
I see from other posts that you do not study Judo, nor much BJJ.
This shows in the fact that you downplay the role of kUzushi in ne waza. BTW, ne waza is a subset of katame waza. Ne waza is katame waza applied while basically supine (more or less) on the ground. Katame Waza includes osaekomi waza (immobilizations), kansetsu waza (joint techniques), and shime waza (strangling/choking), whether applied standing or supine (ne waza).
Kuzushi is just as critical in ne waza, since that is the topic, as in nage waza, or throwing techniques. This is obvious when watching a ne waza expert, be she doing Judo or BJJ. As are debana, tsukuri, and kake.
K. Kashiwazaki addresses the question of Kano's POV on ne waza in his book "Osaekomi". To paraphrase, Kano noted that many judo shiai were turning into ground fighting only matches. He did not want Judo to turn merely into a form of ground wrestling, for both practical and philosophical reasons.
He recognized the need for ne waza in Judo. Also, he noted that the KOSEN ne waza experts were part of the Kodokan, and did practice and do nage waza (ippon via throwing was/is valid under KOSEN rules. So he did not want to do away with ne waza. Thus the rule changes in kodokan Judo that required skillfull entry into ne waza, not just walking out onto the tatami and sitting down on the mat , which was apparently OK under KOSEN rules at the time.
So, according to Kashiwazaki, it looks to me like Kano split the difference. The KOSEN schools continued to have there specialized shiai under the KOSEN rules. But "regular" Kodokan rules were changed to prohibit non-skillful entry to ne waza (and let's not debate what is or is not a "skillfull" entry to ne waza, please). This was done to assure that nage waza would continue to be used in shiai. Not because Kano didn't like ne waza or think it was of no use.
6/29/2009 3:49pm, #92
Kano's interest in promoting judo as a way of promoting an ethical/self development agenda may also have been partly inspired by his interest in European physical education. At that time, the idea of "wholesome sport" serving as a model for moral and even spiritual development had become very trendy in European P.E. theory. In German, English and other P.E. pedagogies there were whole courses in gymnastics and calisthenics that were based on the same idea.
Of course, Kano was also trying to legitimize judo as a morally sound, wholesome activity that could be approved by universities, "rescuing" it from the public image of jujitsu as an obsolete fighting skill employed mostly by gangsters.
Note also the efforts in England and the USA at about the same time, to reform boxing away from the subculture of gambling, debauchery and violence associated with the professional prize-fighting circuit. That ultimately led to the development of "scientific", amateur boxing as something that could be endorsed by schools and by the YMCA.
6/29/2009 3:56pm, #93
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Attempts to link BJJ to the magical mysterious Fusen Ryu, somehow bypassing the link to Judo is ludicrous IMO. Maeda's newaza came from Fusen Ryu, in the same way every Judoka's newaza does.
If Jigoro Kano didn't want Judo to contain newaza, he wouldn't have included it in the first place. You're suggesting he had to somehow weasel it out of his own system, after he himself sent people to learn it with the express purpose of incorporating it into Judo... that's insane.
The implication that Kano's inclusion of Fusen Ne Waza implies that he was happy about doing it is misleading. Kano added that material to his system because Judo would have been displaced the position it won in the police academy matches, if he did not. Tanabe's students were winning 100% of the challenge matches, and the only way to regain the competitive advantage was to learn their game.
To me it looks like a case of "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em, but you don't have to be happy about it."Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie
KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao
In De Janerio, in blackest night,
Luta Livre flees the fight,
Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
6/29/2009 3:58pm, #94
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- Aug 2006
It is quite fair to say that fusen was a contributor to the popularity of newaza and therefore was partly responsible for bjj through maeda. However, it is not the technical source for a majority of the Katamewaza of judo. The katame no kata was formulated before the fusen matches, if I recall correctly (1882).
Knowing that, it seems likely that the fusen match merely forced kano to admit that newaza was important, and made many judo students very interested in the specialized methods of newaza the fusen school brought into the fold. Causing the newaza surge that kano reacted to with the ground limits.
6/29/2009 4:00pm, #95
Starting at the bottom:
Kano sent ne waza specialists..... Um, well, he sent Kodokan Judoka around the world. Just as today, some are better at ne waza than others. I do not think you can show that Kano specifically sent ne waza specialists around the world.
Oops, second from bottom then:
Kano sent Maeda to Brazil (no not really, he went there on his own, as far as I know).
Maeda taught KOSEN Judo to Carlos Gracie et al. (I think you can see now that there is no such thing as KOSEN Judo, separate from Kodokan Judo, so your statement simply makes no sense. KOSEN Judo is Kodokan Judo, contested under a different set of rules than the standard Kodokan rules. KOSEN rules allow much more time for groundwork, and do not require a skillful entry to ne waza to continue. You can still win by IPPON throw under KOSEN Judo rules. But if you are no good at throwing, you can go out and pull guard or just sit down if you want.
Regarding incorporating Fusen ryu int o Kodokan Judo.
That is a kettle of fish that no one is certain of at this point in time. Kodokan Judo did have katame waza, in fact, Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu, one Kanos two primary arts, have extensive katame waza, but not in the style of what we today call ne waza. No one is quite sure where Tanabe learned his style of ne waza, or what exactly it looked like. Modern day Fusen Ryu does not demonstrate what we would call ne waza, as far as I know.
You need to go to Judoforum.com and use the advanced search function. If you have any other questions, start a thread, or revive an old one.
6/29/2009 4:03pm, #96
6/29/2009 4:05pm, #97
Discipline, respect and loyalty are implicitly there in bjj. They are explicit goals of judo.
6/29/2009 4:06pm, #98
I know that the general wisdom is that judo's ne-waza was based on Fusen-ryu, but as I suggested earlier, that may be a red herring. Last I looked into this (which was a while ago), there wasn't much evidence showing that Fusen-ryu, per se, emphasized ne-waza. That's part of the reason I'm interested in Tanabe's association with the Handa dojo, which evidently did emphasize ne-waza.
Last edited by DdlR; 6/29/2009 4:30pm at .
6/29/2009 4:07pm, #99
6/29/2009 4:07pm, #100
And I agree about keeping it civil. WW has in interest in the history of Judo and BJJ. He does not have to be a judoka or BJJer to ask questions or do independent research.