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  1. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 3:47pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by War Wheel View Post
    I think it is more accurate to say that Kano's focus on alive training was necesitated by the central position of Kazushi in Judo. I also think it is not helpful to imagine that the Fusen-ryu practitioners who were defeating Judoka on the mat didn't train in an alive manner. The results indicate otherwise.

    I supposed a lot of what I have said hinges on whether Kano really was unhappy with the success of the new Ne Waza techniques in Judo competition. This is the key question, because if he really did take steps to limit the Ne Waza based road to victory in competition, then it is very difficult to credit him setting the stage for BJJ's emergence in any kind of direct or constructive manner.

    I think it makes quite a bit of sense for Kano to try to keep the focus on Tachi Waza where the application of the Kazushi principle is greatest.
    War Wheel,

    I see from other posts that you do not study Judo, nor much BJJ.

    This shows in the fact that you downplay the role of kUzushi in ne waza. BTW, ne waza is a subset of katame waza. Ne waza is katame waza applied while basically supine (more or less) on the ground. Katame Waza includes osaekomi waza (immobilizations), kansetsu waza (joint techniques), and shime waza (strangling/choking), whether applied standing or supine (ne waza).

    Kuzushi is just as critical in ne waza, since that is the topic, as in nage waza, or throwing techniques. This is obvious when watching a ne waza expert, be she doing Judo or BJJ. As are debana, tsukuri, and kake.

    K. Kashiwazaki addresses the question of Kano's POV on ne waza in his book "Osaekomi". To paraphrase, Kano noted that many judo shiai were turning into ground fighting only matches. He did not want Judo to turn merely into a form of ground wrestling, for both practical and philosophical reasons.

    He recognized the need for ne waza in Judo. Also, he noted that the KOSEN ne waza experts were part of the Kodokan, and did practice and do nage waza (ippon via throwing was/is valid under KOSEN rules. So he did not want to do away with ne waza. Thus the rule changes in kodokan Judo that required skillfull entry into ne waza, not just walking out onto the tatami and sitting down on the mat , which was apparently OK under KOSEN rules at the time.

    So, according to Kashiwazaki, it looks to me like Kano split the difference. The KOSEN schools continued to have there specialized shiai under the KOSEN rules. But "regular" Kodokan rules were changed to prohibit non-skillful entry to ne waza (and let's not debate what is or is not a "skillfull" entry to ne waza, please). This was done to assure that nage waza would continue to be used in shiai. Not because Kano didn't like ne waza or think it was of no use.
  2. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 3:49pm

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    Kano's interest in promoting judo as a way of promoting an ethical/self development agenda may also have been partly inspired by his interest in European physical education. At that time, the idea of "wholesome sport" serving as a model for moral and even spiritual development had become very trendy in European P.E. theory. In German, English and other P.E. pedagogies there were whole courses in gymnastics and calisthenics that were based on the same idea.

    Of course, Kano was also trying to legitimize judo as a morally sound, wholesome activity that could be approved by universities, "rescuing" it from the public image of jujitsu as an obsolete fighting skill employed mostly by gangsters.

    Note also the efforts in England and the USA at about the same time, to reform boxing away from the subculture of gambling, debauchery and violence associated with the professional prize-fighting circuit. That ultimately led to the development of "scientific", amateur boxing as something that could be endorsed by schools and by the YMCA.
  3. Matt Phillips is online now
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 3:56pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lu Tze View Post
    You could say the same about Maeda's tachi waza, that didn't come from Judo either... it's a massive red herring. Maeda never trained Fusen Ryu, his only formative exposure to martial arts was at the Kodokan (apart from a brief stint in Sumo).
    I don't think it is as simple as that. Kano revolutionized the way JJJ Tachi Waza was trained. I put this thread up primarily to see if there is evidence that he did the same thing with the Ne Waza. Bear in mind that the Fusen-ryu practitioners who were defeating Kano's students were not one of the dead classical schools of JJJ, but another competing "modern" style.

    Attempts to link BJJ to the magical mysterious Fusen Ryu, somehow bypassing the link to Judo is ludicrous IMO. Maeda's newaza came from Fusen Ryu, in the same way every Judoka's newaza does.
    If Jigoro Kano didn't want Judo to contain newaza, he wouldn't have included it in the first place. You're suggesting he had to somehow weasel it out of his own system, after he himself sent people to learn it with the express purpose of incorporating it into Judo... that's insane.
    Hey, I'm not a BJJ guy looking to make his art "special". I'm a neutral 3rd party looking to get some insight into the relationship between two arts that I don't train in.

    The implication that Kano's inclusion of Fusen Ne Waza implies that he was happy about doing it is misleading. Kano added that material to his system because Judo would have been displaced the position it won in the police academy matches, if he did not. Tanabe's students were winning 100% of the challenge matches, and the only way to regain the competitive advantage was to learn their game.

    To me it looks like a case of "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em, but you don't have to be happy about it."
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  4. Blue Negation is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 3:58pm


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    It is quite fair to say that fusen was a contributor to the popularity of newaza and therefore was partly responsible for bjj through maeda. However, it is not the technical source for a majority of the Katamewaza of judo. The katame no kata was formulated before the fusen matches, if I recall correctly (1882).

    Knowing that, it seems likely that the fusen match merely forced kano to admit that newaza was important, and made many judo students very interested in the specialized methods of newaza the fusen school brought into the fold. Causing the newaza surge that kano reacted to with the ground limits.
  5. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 4:00pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by War Wheel View Post
    I'm not arguing against anyone in particular, and I certainly don't want to single anyone out for what might be seen as an attack. I am simply asking if it is fair (and accurate) to credit Kano and Judo with providing the foundation for BJJ.

    Let me just list out the facts from the historical record I referred to, and you can tell me which ones you think require further support.

    Kano's original formulation of Judo did not include its Ne Waza techniques yet.

    Kano's students famously defeated all other invited styles of JJJ in a series of matches organized by the Police.

    Proctitioners of Fusen-ryu defeated several Judoka in challenge matches.

    These matches happen after the matches at the police academy.

    After the defeat of his students Kano encorporated Ne Waza from Fusen-ryu into Kodokan Judo.

    Many Judoka becan to use the new techniques to win Judo competitions.

    Kano established Kosen Judo and the 7 University system, and modified the practice of Judo (outside these venues) to reduce the application of Ne Waza to Judo competition.

    Kano sends several Ne Waza specialists, including Maeda, abroad as embassadors of the sport.

    Maeda teaches Kosen Judo techniques to Carlos Gracie.

    Just bold the entries you would like references for, or indicate any other part of what I wrote that I may have ommitted.
    First off, I did not see anything that is "part of the historical record listed. Which historical record?

    Starting at the bottom:
    Kano sent ne waza specialists..... Um, well, he sent Kodokan Judoka around the world. Just as today, some are better at ne waza than others. I do not think you can show that Kano specifically sent ne waza specialists around the world.

    Oops, second from bottom then:
    Kano sent Maeda to Brazil (no not really, he went there on his own, as far as I know).

    Maeda taught KOSEN Judo to Carlos Gracie et al. (I think you can see now that there is no such thing as KOSEN Judo, separate from Kodokan Judo, so your statement simply makes no sense. KOSEN Judo is Kodokan Judo, contested under a different set of rules than the standard Kodokan rules. KOSEN rules allow much more time for groundwork, and do not require a skillful entry to ne waza to continue. You can still win by IPPON throw under KOSEN Judo rules. But if you are no good at throwing, you can go out and pull guard or just sit down if you want.

    Regarding incorporating Fusen ryu int o Kodokan Judo.

    That is a kettle of fish that no one is certain of at this point in time. Kodokan Judo did have katame waza, in fact, Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu, one Kanos two primary arts, have extensive katame waza, but not in the style of what we today call ne waza. No one is quite sure where Tanabe learned his style of ne waza, or what exactly it looked like. Modern day Fusen Ryu does not demonstrate what we would call ne waza, as far as I know.

    You need to go to Judoforum.com and use the advanced search function. If you have any other questions, start a thread, or revive an old one.
  6. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 4:03pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by War Wheel View Post
    I think that is quite unfair. I have been reading up a bit on the history, trying to become more informed about the subject, which I think is the responsibility of anyone that wants to participate in a discussion about Judo. I don't need rank in Judo or anything else to ask a question, just as one does not need to be an artist to study art history, or a soldier to study military history.

    I do not have any rank in BJJ either, but I did begin my study of it fairly early relative to the rest of you (witnter 1994), and I followed its development in the US very closely. I know much more about the history of BJJ than I do about the history of Judo. Hence the reading up. Hence the emergence of my question.

    I am not trying to flog a dead horse from the UG or anywhere else. The question just occured to me the other day.

    I am not at home, so I will have to dig up references from the web. If that ends up being inadequate, I will use non web sources where need be.

    And here I thought Saku was named Kazushi because he was 'unballanced'
    It's great you are thinking about stuff like that.

    For yourself and any others, I suggest you go to Judoforum.com and use the search function. Try "Kosen" and "Fusen".

    You will find plenty of reading material.
  7. UpaLumpa is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 4:05pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Kuzushi is just as critical in ne waza, since that is the topic, as in nage waza, or throwing techniques. This is obvious when watching a ne waza expert, be she doing Judo or BJJ. As are debana, tsukuri, and kake.
    Fabulous point. Those who discount the role of kuzushi in ne waza do not understand what they are watching.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    This was my original thought as well.

    @BKR: BJJ was designed, as per Helio, to allow a smaller person to defeat a larger, stronger one. Pedagogical methods and character-improvement-systems are certainly high on the list of a number of BJJ teachers. I would add Ribiero to that list; he has a podcast on Youtube where he talks about requiring students to embody jiujitsu, to know the history, to know judo throws, to act right, etc.

    There are plenty of judo schools that have lost this mindset, just like there are many BJJ schools that aren't really about it.
    Yes, BUT you are ignoring that one has this aspect explicitly laid out.
    Discipline, respect and loyalty are implicitly there in bjj. They are explicit goals of judo.
  8. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 4:06pm

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    I know that the general wisdom is that judo's ne-waza was based on Fusen-ryu, but as I suggested earlier, that may be a red herring. Last I looked into this (which was a while ago), there wasn't much evidence showing that Fusen-ryu, per se, emphasized ne-waza. That's part of the reason I'm interested in Tanabe's association with the Handa dojo, which evidently did emphasize ne-waza.
    Last edited by DdlR; 6/29/2009 4:30pm at .
  9. UpaLumpa is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 4:07pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Modern day Fusen Ryu does not demonstrate what we would call ne waza, as far as I know.
    This is a very good point that I've read elsewhere.
  10. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 4:07pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtripp View Post
    Guys, ease up, they are still shooting people in Iraq...

    We can disagree without being disagreeable. This is an interesting subject; FYI, its nice to see you here Ben.
    thanks, Mark, I have been wondering where you disappeared to. Hope your health is better than last time I heard any news.

    And I agree about keeping it civil. WW has in interest in the history of Judo and BJJ. He does not have to be a judoka or BJJer to ask questions or do independent research.
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