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  1. Matt Phillips is offline
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 8:27am

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     Style: Submission Grappling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Is It Really Fair To Say BJJ Is Judo?

    I know this has become the received wisdom, but I have a small problem with this. Kano's origianal Judo did not include the techniques that BJJ is based on. The signature Ne Waza of Judo was added later when Kano incorporated ground techniques from Fusen-ryu. The famous victories of Judo over other JJJ systems in the Police Academy challenge matches were won before these techniques were part of the system. Kano's motivation for bringing in fusen-ryu's Ne Waza was pretty sensible. Fusen-ryu practitioners were defeating Judo players in challenge matches. While Kano did bring this aspect of the game into Judo, he was never entirely comfortable with the change, and took steps later in life to limit the role of Ne Waza in Judo, including the creation of Kosen Judo, and the establishment of the 7 university system. The marginalization of Ne Waza continues to this day in Olympic Judo, and I think it is clear that these are really two different systems that have been attempting to either co-exist or seperate since Kano brought them together.

    While it is true that Kosen Judo is the taproot of BJJ, Kosen Judo itself owes as much, if not more, to Takeda Motsuge and Fusen-ryu than it does to Kano and Kodokan Judo.

    Kano's invaluable contribution to matial arts was the Kazushi principle, and not the tradition of Ne Waza embodied in Judo and BJJ. IMO.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  2. cam4276 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 8:33am


     Style: MMA / BJJ / Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I do not think it is fair to say BJJ is judo.

    Both arts have continued to evolve within their own ruleset and they are now quite different.

    A classic example of this would be leg locks which have been illegal in Judo for about 25 years so even judoka with 20 year experience would not be familair with these techniques.

    Also the strict rules about putting any pressure on the spine have resulted in massive differences in teh application of chokes, mount, etc.
  3. Skillful is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 8:33am


     Style: Jiu Jitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Is the question whether it's fair or whether it's the truth? BJJ, in my mind, is different than judo, but very much relies on (read: couldn't have existed without) Kano's innovation of alive training in which you do not actually maim your partners (or get maimed yourself) in most cases.

    Helio's innovation was applying this to the ground game as well as stand-up for a relevant time frame.
  4. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 8:38am

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by cam4276 View Post
    I do not think it is fair to say BJJ is judo.

    Both arts have continued to evolve within their own ruleset and they are now quite different.

    A classic example of this would be leg locks which have been illegal in Judo for about 25 years so even judoka with 20 year experience would not be familair with these techniques.

    Also the strict rules about putting any pressure on the spine have resulted in massive differences in teh application of chokes, mount, etc.
    25years?Morelike75-100years.forsomereasonmyspacekeystoppedworking,sor ryaboutthat.
  5. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 8:40am

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by War Wheel View Post
    I know this has become the received wisdom, but I have a small problem with this. Kano's origianal Judo did not include the techniques that BJJ is based on. The signature Ne Waza of Judo was added later when Kano incorporated ground techniques from Fusen-ryu. The famous victories of Judo over other JJJ systems in the Police Academy challenge matches were won before these techniques were part of the system. Kano's motivation for bringing in fusen-ryu's Ne Waza was pretty sensible. Fusen-ryu practitioners were defeating Judo players in challenge matches. While Kano did bring this aspect of the game into Judo, he was never entirely comfortable with the change, and took steps later in life to limit the role of Ne Waza in Judo, including the creation of Kosen Judo, and the establishment of the 7 university system. The marginalization of Ne Waza continues to this day in Olympic Judo, and I think it is clear that these are really two different systems that have been attempting to either co-exist or seperate since Kano brought them together.

    While it is true that Kosen Judo is the taproot of BJJ, Kosen Judo itself owes as much, if not more, to Takeda Motsuge and Fusen-ryu than it does to Kano and Kodokan Judo.

    Kano's invaluable contribution to matial arts was the Kazushi principle, and not the tradition of Ne Waza embodied in Judo and BJJ. IMO.
    references?
  6. 1point2 is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 8:41am

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    Judo has had periods where newaza was truly valued. In addition, the creation of judo was not a BANG single event, which would mean it was Kito-ryu + whatever the other one was + kuzushi principle. It was a teaching method developed over time, including his integration of multiple jujutsu ryus, emphasis on his new, safe randori as a principle training method, and his revolution in martial pedagogy, going from "senior student or teacher throws you a thousand times, you hope to figure out how they did it because they won't explain" to "specific application of technique, including emphasis on kuzushi".

    Judo was, in effect, the synthesis of all the jujutsu ryus, discarding the old methods and taking on the new. Saying that it didn't have newaza is overly facile. There have been newaza specialists specifically ordered to develop that specialty! Kosen judo was not a ghettoing of newaza, it was a way to promote both newaza and judo together.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
  7. Matt Phillips is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 8:53am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skillful View Post
    Is the question whether it's fair or whether it's the truth? BJJ, in my mind, is different than judo, but very much relies on (read: couldn't have existed without) Kano's innovation of alive training in which you do not actually maim your partners (or get maimed yourself) in most cases.

    Helio's innovation was applying this to the ground game as well as stand-up for a relevant time frame.
    I think it is more accurate to say that Kano's focus on alive training was necesitated by the central position of Kazushi in Judo. I also think it is not helpful to imagine that the Fusen-ryu practitioners who were defeating Judoka on the mat didn't train in an alive manner. The results indicate otherwise.

    I supposed a lot of what I have said hinges on whether Kano really was unhappy with the success of the new Ne Waza techniques in Judo competition. This is the key question, because if he really did take steps to limit the Ne Waza based road to victory in competition, then it is very difficult to credit him setting the stage for BJJ's emergence in any kind of direct or constructive manner.

    I think it makes quite a bit of sense for Kano to try to keep the focus on Tachi Waza where the application of the Kazushi principle is greatest.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  8. 1point2 is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 8:58am

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    Kano's focus on kuzushi, which I believe you overstate, is besides the question as to whether BJJ = judo.

    BTW, the answer to BJJ ?= Judo is and always has been, more complex than yes or no. The answer lies in the history of how BJJ developed as an offshoot.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
  9. Matt Phillips is offline
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 9:10am

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    Kano's focus on kuzushi, which I believe you overstate, is besides the question as to whether BJJ = judo.

    BTW, the answer to BJJ ?= Judo is and always has been, more complex than yes or no. The answer lies in the history of how BJJ developed as an offshoot.
    I have no problem modifying my emphasis on the centrality of Kazushi in Kano's approach to JJ (and the creation of judo) but you're going to have to make an argument before I consider doing so.

    The central point I have been trying to make is that Kano was not enthusiastic about bringing Ne Waza into Judo; That he did not do so until he was forced by the success of Fusen-ryu against his system, and that he was, later, not happy about the emerging dominance of ground fighting in Judo competition. He took steps to ensure the continued primacy of throwing in Judo, and those steps were very effective. If the result of that attempt to keep Ne Waza from becoming the focus of Judo had the unintended consequence of encouraging Ne Waza based arts to appear elsewhere, it is difficult to credit either Kano or his art. Make sense?
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  10. 1point2 is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 9:18am

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     Style: 剛 and 柔

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    Uh, OK.

    A) References?

    B) Read the dozen BJJ ?= Judo threads on the site

    C) Kano's opinion was that one should learn throwing first, then groundwork, because he saw that as the easier path. I see this born out regularly on this site. People who learn throwing before groundwork have a set of powerful throws, and can develop sick groundwork. Those who learn groundwork first often rely on a different set of takedowns and sacrifice throws that resemble their existing groundwork, instead of learning the new skillset. If you disagree, fine. But it was a valid choice for curriculum.

    D) Kuzushi is a major part of judo, but if you read Kano's book, he clearly lays out a number of different principles that make up judo. Maximum efficiency, minimum effort is certainly more central.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
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