[Oxford UK] So how full of it are these guys?

**Rock Ape** · Posted On: 6/28/2008 12:24pm

Originally Posted by Sayle

..//..Honestly, I don't particularly care about legitimacy as long as the techniques are effective. If I was starting a martial art style on the other hand I would have a different viewpoint. You don't piss over an effective tradition because you disagree with it somehow in some weird, nebulous way.

Not to appear rude but, I guess you'd go to a doctor that wasn't really a doctor, - Because he told you he knew what he was doing? Or, you'd eventually send your kids to a school full of people telling you they know how to teach, but actually can't?

My point being, not caring about the origins of what you do, leaves you wide open to bullshit because there's no benchmark or starting point to reference from or too.

How do you know the techniques "work" ?

How many fights have you been in where the techniques have been pressure tested ?

In terms of my interest in this system (the sword) I'd be very interested to know how you quantify "effective" in relation to what is being taught.

**BomberH** · Posted On: 6/28/2008 2:17pm

For those BAMA members who train at the Birmingham Dojo, Why? It's expensive, cultish and heavily kata based and has fictional sword work. Birmingham as loads of high quality martial arts clubs that are a fraction of the price. For example learning the BAMA ficitonal sword style seems crazy when there is an All Japan Kendo Federation 7th Dan (Iaido) teaching in Birmingham. The same goes for the home made Karate and Aikido Te (WTF makes this better than the Aikido taught for £3 to £4 a session across Birmingham)

**Sayle** · Posted On: 6/28/2008 2:24pm

There is a substantial difference between legitimacy by lineage and legitimacy by technique. If a style has legitimacy from lineage it is practically assured that legitimacy by technique comes along with the package, because the style is effective. On the other hand if a style does NOT possess legitimacy by lineage and has been newly started its technique is open to scrutiny and rightly so. It is doubly suspect if it is never admitted that this is the case or is a 'great secret', which seems to be the case with BAMA.

I don't know what sort of Iai or Kenjutsu that BAMA teaches, but I have watched some footage of general swordwork from some of the Japanese schools (albeit not in great detail) and most of what they practice seems to be pretty much identical to what we do with the basics. I don't pretend to be able to quantify 'effective' in terms of sword work, and it wasn't what I was referring to in the first place. Effective suggests you have a benchmark to compare it to, and aside from perhaps a few people in the world you don't precisely have Samurai-class swordsmen you can spar with to compare, do you?

In answer to your other questions I don't know how well techniques work in comparison with other styles. I know they were certainly effective when I had to put them into practice more than once. Unfortunately my idyllic vision of college was somewhat shattered. I had bruises, but in each case someone who was physically stronger than me (at least in my opinion) lost. This was only twice, and the third fight I had in the year barely qualified as a scuffle. It only took on quick blow, so not exactly a good judge of overall performance.

But I am at least confident in the effectiveness of the techniques. They are regularly demonstrated on both compliant and noncompliant targets when being taught, and actually explain what is happening with the muscles, joints, bone and ect. So yes, I am confident. Do I know whether they are as effective as other martial styles, such as Shotokan Karate which it is based around? No, because I don't practice Shotokan Karate. Unless I try another style I personally won't know. So I can't answer that.

And yes, it did seem a bit rude, but I understand that somebody in this forum would have a well justified frustration with phony and suspect martial arts and teachers.

**bjjgame** · Posted On: 6/28/2008 5:02pm

Um,
Not to change the subject...
but there are a lot of posts on here by people who have posted only on this thread.
Anybody taking bets on how many of them are instuctors/Bushido school owners/the same person?

**Rock Ape** · Posted On: 6/29/2008 8:48am

Originally Posted by Sayle

..//..I don't know what sort of Iai or Kenjutsu that BAMA teaches, but I have watched some footage of general swordwork from some of the Japanese schools (albeit not in great detail) and most of what they practice seems to be pretty much identical to what we do with the basics.

So what you're saying is that you're not qualified to discuss the specifics and generalisms of Japanese swordsmanship. Well I am. I've studied Muso Shinden Ryu for a considerable number of years, I've also studied Sosuishi Ryu with the only instructor here in the UK. If you're unable to determine the differences between made up-ryu and a legitimate gendai or koryu school, you're not really in a position to answer the questions I require. I'll drop your Grand Master an email and see what he has to say.

..//.. I don't pretend to be able to quantify 'effective' in terms of sword work, and it wasn't what I was referring to in the first place. Effective suggests you have a benchmark to compare it to, and aside from perhaps a few people in the world you don't precisely have Samurai-class swordsmen you can spar with to compare, do you?

Well actually yes, over the last 20 years I've had the opportunity to study with several Japanese instructors, non of whom have invented their own "style" My first instructor was trained in Japan and most recently, my exposure to the sword line within Sosuishi Ryu was likewise with an instructor who'd spent a decade in Japan and is a legitimate Shihan.

However; to quote from your own association's website:

Ken Kai Ryu

Tim Forsyth has become one of the countries leading experts in the ..//.. Japanese sword

That is indeed a bold statement to make considering the frequency in which the Japanese are here in the UK, additionally, almost all of the people I've spoken too within the UK sword community have never heard of either Tim Forsyth or Pete Delane - other than from the threads which exist like this and those on other more traditional martial arts websites. Not exactly a glowing reference to being a "leading expert" within a fairly small community of iaido and kenjutsu exponents.

..//..And yes, it did seem a bit rude, but I understand that somebody in this forum would have a well justified frustration with phony and suspect martial arts and teachers.

Well I did preface my comments with "but"

I'm going to offer you a small bit of advice, please feel free to take it or leave it.

In 21 years of continuous study in three classical disciplines there's always been one constant when dealing with people - ESPECIALLY WESTERNERS who've "invented" their own styles of martial arts...

Those people may well claim to have been sick of politics, seen the "ineffectiveness" of what they were previously doing or wanted to do their own thing free from the constraints of larger organisations; regardless of the reason/excuse it has always been my experience that these people simply can't cut it in the mainstream even though for some, they have done so for 10 or even 20 years - it all comes down to bullshit.

I'm sorry if that doesn't fit with your impression of what you're seeing.

**Sayle** · Posted On: 6/29/2008 10:54am

I clearly said in my first post that I am not a member of BAMA. Yanno...just pointing that out. I'm not defending the organization, which I believe I made my opinion clear on. I don't HAVE a 'Grand Master', especially one with a made up name that doesn't even make sense. I don't even know who Tim Forsyth is, besides him sharing a last name with a particularly good writer of spy novels. I'm not SEEING anything, I'm making reasoned analysis from the facts I have on hand about BAMA of which I am not a member and my own personal opinions. Okay, I don't know as much about the subject of sword as you. I don't even pretend to. I was drawing comparisons to how my school practices sword, not how BAMA practices sword. Even if not clearly stated, knowing that I'm not a member of BAMA as you seem to be assuming (perhaps having missed my first post) it was inferred.

So yeah...just, throwing that out there before I get slammed for being part of an organisation I'm not a member of and from what I have read don't even particularly like.

**Rock Ape** · Posted On: 6/29/2008 10:58am

What ryu-ha or gendai sword school do you study then, as a matter of curiosity.

**Sayle** · Posted On: 6/29/2008 11:05am

I would say that my school the Budo Foundation(Don't ask why its called Budo, I don't know. I get the feeling it is meant to describe the diverse range of sources and inspiration it has...you would have to ask the founder of style, Gary Gregory) Actually, I got lost there. I would say that it is most certainly based around a very strong core of Shotokan. Most of the terminology, movements, stances...practically everything is drawn from Shotokan. I don't know if there are standard kata for Shotokan or not but ours were created in-house.

As for the sword school, I haven't the faintest clue if there are sub-styles of sword to Iai or Kenjutsu (mostly Iai, in my limited experience). I have only been practicing sword for about...maybe eight months. My knowledge on the subject is hardly encyclopedic. Again, I would have to defer to a higher power (the aforementioned Gary Gregory) before I dig myself into a hole with conjecture, as I am often wont to do.

**Rock Ape** · Posted On: 6/29/2008 11:16am

So, in eight months of study, you don't know the name of the sword system you study or any specific details about it.

Er... Ok then, is it at least koryu or gendai in origin ?

*Koryu - Old school predating the Meiji Restoration of 1867

*Gendai - Modern anything after 1867.

How are assessments in progression conducted? Using the kyu/dan or menkyo systems of certification ?

**Sayle** · Posted On: 6/29/2008 11:20am

Well I do know it is Iai, I know it is Gendai (yes, I do know the terminology, at least terminology that isn't obscure.) but beyond that I haven't the faintest clue. I enjoy it, it isn't flashy, and it seems solid, at least at a casual glance. I've been butchered enough for everything from my cuts to my grip to...well, pretty much everything. I gathered that sword was a fairly recent development by the time I joined, so I think I got on within the first few months of it starting. There are usually only two to six of us doing it, so at least my mistakes get found and corrected fairly rapidly. Well...they try to correct them. Success is another matter. Again, I must defer judgment higher up the chain.

The sword level advances by kyu/dan, the same way as the actual Shotokan(or Budo Karate or...whatever you want to call it) advances.