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  1. HailtotheKing is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/26/2009 10:01am


     Style: Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by cyrijl View Post
    I totally disagree. With all of the fucked up things that take place in competition (weight cutting, sand bagging, waiting for hours,etc), I don't see the benefit. Some of the guys who do well at tournaments at my school, I would allow these guys to teach my niece how to tie her shoes.

    NAGA is tomorrow, I couldn't cut weight because I was out of country for three weeks. So the guys I am going to go against will be 15-20lbs heavier than me. Probably belong to a skill level at least one above me. And I will have to wait 5-8 hours between divisions. I just don't see how this helps me. I regularly go to other schools to roll and train. Maybe competitions in other places are run differently, I don't know. But my judo and bjj experience has been the same.

    Plus I don't have any tapout or affliction shirts to wear.

    When the little buzzer goes off, I just can't bring myself to care anymoe than before the buzzer went off.
    Then why the hell are you paying the money to compete? Do you have extra cash and a Saturday to waste? Must be nice to not get anything out of it. Can you just pay my way next time?
  2. cyrijl is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/26/2009 10:27am

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     Style: BJJ, MT, Yoga

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    People want to see me compete so I do/did it. If my hands are in shape tomorrow I'll do it again. (long story, involves india, an allergic reaction, blisters and cracking skin).

    I don't have that much extra cash but our open mat is cancelled. Last competition I got fucked up rolling thursday night, couldn't bend over friday....woke up saturday, bored and with no open mat, so I decided to compete. I won my only no-gi match (i had to leave before the gi div) against a guy who was about 172 before he cut (you weigh in the night before). It was just so riduclous. Especially since you have guys who cut more than 20lbs.
    There is no cheating, there is only jiu-jitsu.
  3. Petter is offline

    12th level logic wielder

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    Posted On:
    6/26/2009 12:27pm


     Style: BJJ, judo, rapier

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by cyrijl View Post
    I totally disagree. With all of the fucked up things that take place in competition (weight cutting, sand bagging, waiting for hours,etc), I don't see the benefit. Some of the guys who do well at tournaments at my school, I would allow these guys to teach my niece how to tie her shoes.
    You’re making a converse error. The assertion “If you do not compete, you are not qualified to teach” does not imply that “If you compete, you are qualified to teach”; competition is asserted to be a necessary, not a sufficient condition. I’m sure no one here is fool enough to think that every successful competitor is fit to teach!

    I’m inclined to think that competition experience is an important criterion. Not least, of course, because many BJJ players will want to compete, and a coach who has never competed is not likely to be the best help for them; but also for all the usual reasons: To ensure that the instructor does have some skills to share; to ensure that he is not so trapped in his own school’s bubble that he fails to teach tricks now widely disseminated in competition.
    [ petterhaggholm.net | blog | essays ]
    [ self defence: general thoughts | bjj: “don’t go to the ground”? ]
    “The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.”
  4. cyrijl is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/26/2009 1:06pm

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     Style: BJJ, MT, Yoga

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I am not making that error actually. I see a problem with competitors who are teaching only what they see as "winning tactics" because "it worked for them". They shut out techniques and strategies which they themselves don't use. I have seen this first hand.
    There is no cheating, there is only jiu-jitsu.
  5. v1y is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/26/2009 2:38pm


     Style: Internet Warrior, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    there are good blues and purples absolutely destroying me at my gym so i really don't understand the point in seeing 'how good i am'.

    plus when guys are preparing for competition we roll with a more 'competition mindset'.

    (only ever been to one tournament and i finished all 4 of my matches in a minute each... although to be fair it was white belt division and less than two months before i got my blue)
  6. Petter is offline

    12th level logic wielder

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    Posted On:
    6/26/2009 2:45pm


     Style: BJJ, judo, rapier

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by cyrijl View Post
    I am not making that error actually. I see a problem with competitors who are teaching only what they see as "winning tactics" because "it worked for them". They shut out techniques and strategies which they themselves don't use. I have seen this first hand.
    And therefore, some successful competitors are bad teachers. So what? That, by itself, does not in any way tell us whether a good teacher should have competitive experience; it just tells us that competitive experience alone is no guarantee of good instruction. Again—surely no one here needed to be told this.
    [ petterhaggholm.net | blog | essays ]
    [ self defence: general thoughts | bjj: “don’t go to the ground”? ]
    “The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.”
  7. cyrijl is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/26/2009 2:54pm

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     Style: BJJ, MT, Yoga

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Exactly. So I don't think tournaments are necessarily that important to studying bjj.

    I would agree competition is helpful for BJJ, but I just don't find the tournaments I have been to that helpful.
    There is no cheating, there is only jiu-jitsu.
  8. Petter is offline

    12th level logic wielder

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    Posted On:
    6/26/2009 3:00pm


     Style: BJJ, judo, rapier

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No, sorry, it does not follow that tournaments are not important.

    Because I like hyperbole, I will construct a silly analogy that still follows the form of the argument:

    The question is asked, is it important that BJJ instructors have arms? Most people say yes, it’s very important to have arms. You say no and point out that actually, lots of BJJ instructors with arms are really terrible instructors, even if they are successful; I agree because, well, duh, just having arms does not qualify you—but agreeing on that point has actually completely failed to establish that armless instructors can ever be good; we’ve just agreed that having arms alone is absolutely no guarantee of teaching skills.

    The only thing you’ve said that actually advances your position at all is a statement of personal opinion: “I don't think tournaments are necessarily that important to studying bjj.” You have’t told us why.
    [ petterhaggholm.net | blog | essays ]
    [ self defence: general thoughts | bjj: “don’t go to the ground”? ]
    “The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.”
  9. cyrijl is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/26/2009 3:08pm

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     Style: BJJ, MT, Yoga

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Because if the idea of a tournament is to test how well you would do against someone of your rank and size, then i think there are alot of things that interfere with that determination such as weight cutting, sandbagging, long waits between/for matches, sometimes very limiting rulesets (esp for gi comps).

    Last NAGA, the guy I went against was about 17lbs heavier than me and competed in the advanced division the year before (against me it was intermediate). I didn't think it was normal to drop down a skill level. To me, the fact that I won means nothing.

    If tournaments were better run, had same day weigh-ins, and better tracking of competitors I would be more enthusiastic about entering. I do think NAGA does a pretty good job with trying to minimize the sandbagging. But it is all of the above combined that annoy me and think the value of tournaments are greatly diminished. For me, I train at two schools and do open mats at a third to get my competition in.

    As far as your analogy, I think what constitutes necessary and sufficient conditions for teaching BJJ is rather subjective. I think having a competition record and a successful one at that is a bonus when looking for instruction,but I don't think it is necessary. My main coach no longer competes (due to all sorts of injuries received during competitions) but my teammtes do very well. The fact that he competed is definitely helpful when it comes to tournament preparation, but it is not what makes him a good instructor since most of the time we are not in tounament mode.

    My answer for the OP I guess comes more from the stance that some people might be turned off of BJJ because they think they'll have to enter tournaments. And some people, like me, are just rather ambivalent to the whole tournament thing.

    Of course, sick as I am now, the longer these threads go on, the more I feel like going tomorrow.

    Sorry for the ton of edits...but one more thing. We just got a guy in his 60s in my class. He just doesn't want to compete. He is too old and the chances he finds someone in his division are slim.
    Last edited by cyrijl; 6/26/2009 3:15pm at .
    There is no cheating, there is only jiu-jitsu.
  10. Petter is offline

    12th level logic wielder

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    Posted On:
    6/26/2009 3:13pm


     Style: BJJ, judo, rapier

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don’t quite agree with you, and I further think that from the prospective student’s perspective, a competition record is the only objective piece of evidence that the instructor has competed and tried out different opponents (I believe you when you say you roll at three schools, but I don’t know that it is true; if I wanted to make sure I found an instructor with diversity of experience, I could most easily verify competition records).

    But while I don’t quite agree with you, that argument is certainly logically coherent.
    [ petterhaggholm.net | blog | essays ]
    [ self defence: general thoughts | bjj: “don’t go to the ground”? ]
    “The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.”
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