[Little Lamb]

This is a wonderfully esoteric discussion. Endless wingchun threads aside, Bullshido is never boring.

I think it's a worthwhile endeavor to maximized your skill at fighting with the weapons you have at hand. So machete practice might be a good idea for the average Haitian. But most people outside of Haiti would be better served learning to fight with a metal garden rake or a shovel or any of a hundred other common tools found in the average suburban household.

I have several dozen items in my basement and garage that I would pick up before even considering fighting with a machete. Hell, I have several really nice kitchen knives that I would pick over a machete. I mean no offense to those who have devoted hours to learning the techniques of Haitian machete fighting. I'm just saying that I think it's of limited interest to the average non-Haitian.

[selfcritical]

I imagine if i was doing semi-ritualized intergang fighting in the US, the machete might look slightly more attractive as a weapon of choice. Sometimes how terrifying a weapon is can be of greater import than how deadly it is. My understanding is that machete violence is on the rise in the US and a lot of latin america. -

[generalrelative]

Hey all,
Here is a new video from my recent trip to Haiti:

YouTube - Haitian Machete Fighting ~ June '09 #1 (Mike taking hits from Professor Avril with sticks)

YouTube - Haitian Machete Fighting ~ June '09 #1 (Mike taking hits from Professor Avril with sticks)

More soon.

CodosDePiedra - Probably the most noteworthy thing about the way we train is that there is very little emphasis on striking techniques. Instead, we work on staying calm, protected and within range as the teacher or another student strikes, and trying to move to a superior position from which we can strike without being struck back. When I am doing the striking, I get very little feedback from my teacher, though the receiving student will often slip in a strike if they feel that the feeding student is leaving himself flagrantly open. Mostly, I try to emulate my teacher's rhythm and his unity with the blade when I am striking, and try to make sure that my strikes flow smoothly from one blocking position to another. The basic defensive positions, which you would learn on your first day training with my teacher are 1) machete or stick pointed straight up with the right foot back to block a blow coming to your right side, 2) the same position with your left foot back to block a blow to your left side, 3) to block a low strike to the shin or foot, decend to the knee, keeping the appropriate leg back (left for left, right for right), 4) to block an overhead strike, hold the machete or stick horrizontal above and slightly in front of the head. We almost never block with the tip down and the arm extended (the exception is when moving from an overhead block to a low block on the left side). Indeed, it is almost always improper form to block with the arm extended in any case. This is to ensure that you have a reserve capacity for extension if your opponent gives you an opportunity to strike, a particularly effective strategem if you can force them into a position where the only way they can move is backwards. The blocks you see in the videos with the tip downward and the blade pressed tghtly to the shoulderare more difficult to expain, but if you watch closely you will see their logic. They are the most efficient way of keeping your opponent's blade outsdie your guard in a number of circumstances, and from time to time will allow you to advance behind your opponent's guard. There is a lot more to discuss here, but hopefully this is a good start.

selfcritical - Getting to the opponent's side is pretty much what we spend our time doing. It's the first step to getting to the back, which is the safest place for you to be and the most dangerous for your opponent. Standing directly in front of your opponent might make sense if you are willing to sacrifice yourself in order to strike your opponent, but it is very difficult to fence yourself off from that position. Assuming you and your opponent are both right-handed, it is better to be on their right side, which gives you the opportunity to bind or jam their sword hand with your off hand, setting up a safe strike to the front.

I hope this has been informative. Peace,
Mike

[A.M.]

I wonder if there could be any link to yoruba sword fighting.

[Gbemi]

Originally Posted by A.M.

I wonder if there could be any link to yoruba sword fighting.

A.M.

I've never heard of it. At least not as a modern martial art. They have ritualized machete dances in honor of Ogun, and maybe some stick fighting. However, the most well known Nigerian weapon art (that I know of) is Hausa stick fighting. The Hausa are somewhat North to the Yoruba and speak a totally different language (they also do Dambe).

Can you point me to any references to Yoruba sword fighting? It would be much appreciated.

[A.M.]

The Oyo empire was well known for making swords ( they also came into conflict with other sword carrying African groups such as the Fulani and the Dahomey). Swords were used for ceremonal porposes, symbols of authority (like the Asante) and in warfare. The yoruba mainly used the sword as a hacking weapon.

Here is a wikipedia article on yoruba swords http://www.wikipedia.org/Ida_(sword)

You can also fine some information on yoruba swords in the book "Africa's Ogun, Old World and New (African Systems of Thought)" by Sandra T. Barnes (you can find it in google books). Barnes got her information on swords from a book by Robert S. Smith Ajayi, and J.F. Ade called Yoruba Warfare in the 19th Century.

[DdlR]

Just a general FYI that as interesting and worthwhile as this thread is, it's actually off-topic for the WMA Forum.

Ironically, this forum originated out of a couple of us agitating for an "off-the-beaten-path-MA" forum as a place of refuge for exactly this type of thread, which had previously ended up in YMAS by default ("comedy and general martial arts forum"). The obvious problem there was that by combining "comedy" with "general MA", serious discussions about little-known styles tended to get LOLzed up.

So, after a bit of discussion, we ended up with a dedicated WMA Forum.

The thing is, Western Martial Arts doesn't mean "every non-Asian martial art"; as a genre, it's specific to MAs of European origin. WMA forums on other boards have frequently become diluted into miscellaneous files.

Before being moved from YMAS and cleaned up, this thread was almost ruined by racist, vile posts from the now-banned user "Internet Budoka".

IMO Bullshido.net does need a forum for the serious, informative discussion of non-mainstream styles, notably including both African and European MAs. Personally, I'd be just as happy if this forum was re-named to accommodate more than just Western MAs; as it stands, the discussion of Haitian machete fencing is as off-topic here as would be a thread on judo in the Chinese MA Forum.

[A.M.]

Yeah I'm pretty sure Haitian machete fighting is of a purely African origin too. I don't really buy the Spanish fencing origin angle.

[selfcritical]

I'm sure that "influenced by african arts" is probably more accurate than "of african orgin". Haiti's culture has bee subject to such violent upheaval that very direct lines of cultural descent(rather than themes and metaphors) seem unlikely.

It's been a while since I've looked into anthropological work in the area, so I may be idly speculating here.

[generalrelative]

I haven't really wanted to get involved in the historical discussion on this thread, mostly because a few folks have been correcting some of the really simplistic reasoning of others, and I am more concerned with advocating for the functionality of this art (that it would be functional if you were to get into a machete fight, however unlikely or unwise that may be), but I'd like to say that I think both A.M. and selfcritical are partially correct here. Many of the traditions in Haiti really are very 'purely' African because of the degree to which, during the nineteenth century, when most of Africa itself was being overrun by colonial powers, Haiti suffered the most complete international ostracism imaginable. Just imagine how slave-holding societies like the antebellum U.S.A. or other imperial powers that justified their existance with racial ideology felt compelled to interact with a small island nation of freed black slaves who had massacred their masters and which resisted re-colonization so ferociously. I have heard from friends who have studied drumming and dancing in west Africa that the teachers often say that it is in Haiti that the strongest roots-African musical traditions exist (that is, because of Haiti's isolation, which contrasts so starkly with the experience of most of sub-Saharan Africa). For this reason, it is not at all unlikely that a continuous martial-arts tradition also connects the two. On the other hand, the European influences on Haiti's culture and martial tradition are undeniable. First, several of Haiti's revolutionary leaders were trained in the French military tradition. There were about 30,000 free blacks and people of mixed ancestry living in Saint Domingue on the eve of the revolution, which was at the time by far France's most wealthy colony, and although they were discriminated against, some lived a very refined 'European' existence. Henri Christoph, one of Haiti's founding fathers, who fought for the French at the siege of Savanna, is known to have been a master fencer who fought many duels, often as an ostentacious way of getting rid of someone he felt he couldn't trust. Dessaline is also said to have been no slouch with a blade. Both would have understood their martial tradition to have been squarely European, and it seems likely to me that the African elements merged with this tradtion slowly over time, as military training and the practices of the more 'African' rural peasants began to influence one another. Though there is some speculation in this argument, the basic facts are easy to verify. I hope that this helps to clarify some of the confusion.