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  1. Petter is offline

    12th level logic wielder

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    Posted On:
    6/25/2009 11:15pm


     Style: BJJ, judo, rapier

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by beardedtaco View Post
    Stretching before you train increases risk of injury ?? I can't agree with that. Stretching at the end is very good, but stretching before, IMHO, is vital to prevent injury. Pretty much all the times I've hurt myself grappling has been because I didn't stretch and warm up enough first.
    You don’t know that. You are, at best, noting a correlation. Furthermore, the conventional wisdom seems to be that warming up is important, while stretching (static stretching specifically) is detrimental; assuming that this is true, failing to "stretch and warm up" may indeed increase injury, but because you didn’t warm up. You might reduce injury even further by omitting the stretching.

    I do not claim to be an authority on the subject, but your argument is flawed, whether the conventional wisdom I adhere to is correct or not.

    What I gather, and what I do: Before workout, warm up and light dynamic stretching. After workout, static stretching.
    [ petterhaggholm.net | blog | essays ]
    [ self defence: general thoughts | bjj: “don’t go to the ground”? ]
    “The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.”
  2. TheRuss is offline
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    is badder than you

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    Posted On:
    6/25/2009 11:22pm

    Join us... or die
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by beardedtaco View Post
    Stretching before you train increases risk of injury ?? I can't agree with that. Stretching at the end is very good, but stretching before, IMHO, is vital to prevent injury. Pretty much all the times I've hurt myself grappling has been because I didn't stretch and warm up enough first.
    Go educate yourself. Stat with the search function. There's no shortage of evidence-based discussion on the subject right here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    Downstreet on the flip-flop, timepants.
  3. jspeedy is online now
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    Posted On:
    6/26/2009 12:16am


     Style: FMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I train with a guy that coaches gymnastics. Usually before class we do a warmup jog or jump-rope and do some stretching but nothing to involved. He says to gain flexibility its best to do more intensive stretching after class, and doing so before class can cause injury. Personally i've never really "had" to stretch before class I'm usually pretty active and on my feet all day and I think naturally i'm on the more limber side. It probably differs from person to person but if you've been sitting on your ass in a cubicle all day some light stretching and a warmup is probably better than just a warmup alone.

    Of course, I base this on no scientific evidence at all only expierence and word of mouth from sources I consider reliable. If you are looking for something other than word of mouth advice however I suppose you'd have done your own "scientific research" in the first place.
  4. Hiro Protagonist is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/26/2009 6:59am

    supporting member
     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wow, hadn't noticed this thread got any replies!

    Many thanks, all!

    So, would the concept I have in mind. (20 mins of light warm up, then 40 mins of stretching [with pauses!]) be advisable, or will I end up hobbling and crookbacked? :qmickey:
  5. socratic is offline

    How do elenchus?

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    Posted On:
    6/26/2009 7:21am


     Style: gah, transition again

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As long as you warm up appropriately, practice the right kind of stretching, and don't do it before intensive exercise, conventional wisdom says you should be kosher.
    Lord Krishna said: I am terrible time the destroyer of all beings in all worlds, engaged to destroy all beings in this world; Of those heroic soldiers presently situated in the opposing army, even without you none will be spared.
    Bhagavad Gita 11:32
  6. Hiro Protagonist is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/26/2009 11:58am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Cool! Then I'll start with this ASAP.:hello:

    On a side note, been down with an allergic reaction for today,
    so my training plan for the rest of the week is screwed up anyway.
  7. CoffeeFan is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/26/2009 6:48pm

    supporting member
     Style: SAMBO/BJJ/Judo and others

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Since I am in the overall process of intensifying my training again,
    I have repeatedly been advised by some gymnasts and JMAers that
    I should reserve one hour a week only for stretching exercises of all kind,
    rather than stretching after each training session (which is something that I, honestly, tend to skip).
    This isn't a black or white answer, as each of us has a different degree of flexibility, sporting/lifestyle needs, and body reaction to a training session. As always, do what feels right for you.

    The ACSM recommends that flexibility training be done 2-3 times per week with a combination of static and PNF stretching. While some people have gone so far as to recommend stretching everyday to prevent injury and keep the body supple. But which is correct?

    Look at your specific sporting and daily needs. Do you require more flexibility in your hips and hamstrings for kickboxing? Neck and upper back for BJJ? Are there any muscular imbalances that affect your quality of life? Keep these in mind when your deciding how much time you need to devote to stretching. The more flexibility required the more time you need to devote to stretching.

    Different sports require different levels of joint flexibility and stability, and that there having too little or too much flexibility can cause injury. If a person lacks flexibility, then there is the chance of overextending the musculoskeletal unit causing damage. If a joint's excessive flexibility compromises the stability of that joint then there is also a chance of injury [Surberg 1983; Jones 1997]. While excessive flexibility may cause problems with the stability of a joint, it isn't always the case (just don't try to be a contortionist or learn to hyper extend your knees, and you should be ok).


    A fairly recent study has shown that longer rest days between stretching sessions actually improves one's flexibility measurement, indicating that daily stretching may not be needed [McCallister et. al. (2004)]. So staying within the 2 -3 days guidelines for dedicated stretching routines would probably be fine unless you have some major flexibility issues.


    Stretching before you train increases risk of injury ?? I can't agree with that. Stretching at the end is very good, but stretching before, IMHO, is vital to prevent injury. Pretty much all the times I've hurt myself grappling has been because I didn't stretch and warm up enough first.
    There is a mixture of studies, some that show stretching before exercise can increase the chance of injury, some that stretching had no effect, and others that shows it to decrease injury. Shrier's (1999) review of the literature indicated that stretching before exercise seems to have no affect on the rate of injury during exercise. It's properly warming up, rather than stretching that prevents injury during exercise or grappling, although including dynamic stretching works well with a general and specific warm up to prevent injury and improve performance.

    There is evidence that greater flexibility can weaken performance in sports that don't require high degrees of flexibility (like running) as performing intense static stretching may reduce one's force production [Jones 2002]. Therefore, save the long static stretching for after your workouts.

    I almost always make sure I am warm before stretching though. Cold streching is a bad idea.
    Agreed. If a muscle isn't properly warmed up can cause possible spraining, straining, or cramping of the muscle and connective tissue. This is due to the stretch reflex that occurs when a muscle is lengthened beyond the normal ROM.

    References
    American College of Sports Medicine, (2000) ACSM's Guidelines for Exercise Testing and Prescription, 6; 158.

    McCallister TL, et. al. (2004) Days of rest between stretching bouts increased hamstring flexibility. Journal of Athletic Training. Supplement 39(2), 99-100.

    Shrier I (1999). Stretching before exercise does not reduce the risk of local muscle injury: a critical review of the clinical and basic science literature. Clin J Sport Med. 9(4): 221-7.

    Jones AM (2002). Running economy is negatively related to sit-and-reach test performance in international-standard distance runners. Int J Sports Med. 23(1):40-3.
  8. Hiro Protagonist is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2009 9:37am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wow, thank you a lot for that great write-up!

    What about putting that into the FAQ section as well?

    As far as to me, I'll try this, then, but with a lot of caution, as suggested.
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