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  1. ZenOfAnger is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/15/2009 9:59pm


     Style: Judo+soon 2b bjj,boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Important and Serious Judo Question: The "Third Leg" of Judo?

    Now I am really confused. (Get ready for a bunch of text)

    I remember when I first started doing judo in August of 2007; I learned breakfalls and also a few throws. The first two I learned were seoi nage (shoulder throw) and o-goshi (hip throw), but we always referred to them in english, not japanese.

    I was taught that in order to get good kazushi, I must pull on my opponents arm, while turning into him, in order to get the throw. I assume this is no different at any other judo school. This is where I believe I was taught something a little different than most.

    Here is a picture of the typical seoi nage:



    Notice how his body is inside his opponents legs to do the throw, and the opponent comes more over the top, as opposed to comming over the side of the thrower.

    Here is the typical o-goshi:



    Note the picture in the middle; the thrower's legs are inside the legs of the person being thrown, and comes more over the top of the thrower, as opposed to the side.

    This was not how I was shown to stand to do these. Instead, when I would pull on my opponents arm, I was told to step into my partner and making sure that the leg which was on the side I was throwing off of, was in between my own.

    In other words, if I were to do a seoi nage off of your right side, I would make sure to pull on your right arm for kazushi, whilst stepping in, making sure my right leg steps across your right leg, with my left leg following and coming to rest to the left side of your right leg, thus making your right leg in between my legs, before I complete the throw.

    I was told that this was the "third leg" of judo, because it looked as if you had three legs when doing the throw, especially if someone was looking at you from the front. I was told to do this, because in doing so, it took balance away from my opponent, and gave me good balance to prevent counter-throws, and the like.

    Now that I am looking more closely at judo videos and books, I am starting to notice that I can't recall ever seeing any judoka using the "third leg" principle. I even tried doing a google search of it and nothing came up.

    In the next few days or so, I will try to get pictures up to show what I mean by "third leg" for those who are still lost on the concept, but for now, I have questions.

    Do any judoka here recall learning any throws where you were told to use the "third leg" principle, especially for seoi nage and o goshi? (I didn't get the chance to learn many throws when I was training).

    Is this just another means to the same end, or would this "third leg" principle not actually work in real life for throws?

    Could it just have been me not understanding my judo coach? If so, how come in the six months I trained with him, he never noticed that I was doing something wrong? (Note: I remember him specifically telling me to get thier leg in between mine for those throws).

    I might have more stuff on this subject soon, but this will suffice for now.

    Sincerely,

    ZoA.
    Let your anger be like a monkey trapped inside a pinata; waiting inside, hoping that the children don't break through with the stick.

    -Master Tang (Kung Pow! Enter the Fist)

    A word to the wise ain't necessary. It's the stupid ones who need the advice.
    Bill Cosby

    The believer is happy, the doubter wise.
    Greek proverb

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicko1 View Post
    Martial Talk is not neutral, it's just neutered.
  2. Breakfast Fox is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2009 10:33pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I was never told anything of that sort, I was taught to keep my feet between my opponent's for throws like those. I'm speaking as a low kyu rank, but it seems as though if someone were to throw me with the "third leg" principle, I would be more "wrapped around" him than if his legs were between mine - more of my weight would be on the opposite side he was trying to throw me. I suppose this could be good if you had inertia already going, but it seems like it'd be easier for me to counter with ura nage or something along those lines.
  3. Beorn is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2009 10:34pm


     Style: TKD, judo, MT noob

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about when you say "third leg", I was honestly expecting you to get temp banned for dick jokes in the style forums.

    However, you are correct in that you are supposed to be outside your opponents hips slightly on o-goshi and seo nage. What is being shown in those pictures is the "classical" approach. The seo especially was "classically" designed to go straight over ones head and required much more strength.

    Notice I put "classical" in quotes. Just because that is the way people are taught to do it in kata doesn't mean thats how they did it in fights.
  4. ZenOfAnger is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/15/2009 10:40pm


     Style: Judo+soon 2b bjj,boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Breakfast Fox View Post
    I was never told anything of that sort, I was taught to keep my feet between my opponent's for throws like those. I'm speaking as a low kyu rank, but it seems as though if someone were to throw me with the "third leg" principle, I would be more "wrapped around" him than if his legs were between mine - more of my weight would be on the opposite side he was trying to throw me. I suppose this could be good if you had inertia already going, but it seems like it'd be easier for me to counter with ura nage or something along those lines.

    This is why I asked if it would actually work in real life. It seems, though, that if I were to actually try the third leg, it would end in failure.

    Thanks for your input.
    Let your anger be like a monkey trapped inside a pinata; waiting inside, hoping that the children don't break through with the stick.

    -Master Tang (Kung Pow! Enter the Fist)

    A word to the wise ain't necessary. It's the stupid ones who need the advice.
    Bill Cosby

    The believer is happy, the doubter wise.
    Greek proverb

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicko1 View Post
    Martial Talk is not neutral, it's just neutered.
  5. Breakfast Fox is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2009 10:47pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ZenOfAnger View Post
    This is why I asked if it would actually work in real life. It seems, though, that if I were to actually try the third leg, it would end in failure.

    Thanks for your input.
    Eh, you never know until you try. Like I said, I'm a low kyu rank. I'm still trying to get kuzushi to work at all, much less refine it. :psyduck:
  6. ZenOfAnger is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/15/2009 10:51pm


     Style: Judo+soon 2b bjj,boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about when you say "third leg", I was honestly expecting you to get temp banned for dick jokes in the style forums.
    This is why I will get pictures up to show you what I mean. It's kind of hard to explain. Yes, that was a little bit of a running joke in class.

    However, you are correct in that you are supposed to be outside your opponents hips slightly on o-goshi and seo nage.
    What do you mean by "outside"? Do you mean my leg placement, or my hips?

    What is being shown in those pictures is the "classical" approach. The seo especially was "classically" designed to go straight over ones head and required much more strength.

    Notice I put "classical" in quotes. Just because that is the way people are taught to do it in kata doesn't mean thats how they did it in fights.
    So the classic approach needed more strength. Then can you show, and/or explain how to do it in a fight?

    Whenever I did the "third leg" principle, my opponents seemed to come more over my hips, than over my own body.

    This thursday I'll be going to a judo school (was going to go last week, but **** happens. This is why I am asking here.), and I'll make sure to ask them about this to see what they have to say about it.

    Remember, I could have just misinterpreted what my first judo coach was telling me, but I can almost swear he wanted us to make sure that their leg was in between our when we did those throws.

    Thanks for the feedback,

    ZoA.
    Let your anger be like a monkey trapped inside a pinata; waiting inside, hoping that the children don't break through with the stick.

    -Master Tang (Kung Pow! Enter the Fist)

    A word to the wise ain't necessary. It's the stupid ones who need the advice.
    Bill Cosby

    The believer is happy, the doubter wise.
    Greek proverb

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicko1 View Post
    Martial Talk is not neutral, it's just neutered.
  7. Cy Q. Faunce is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/15/2009 11:01pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Finding You

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've never heard of this third leg thing as you describe it.

    I cannot possibly believe that it would work. If someone did it to me, I believe I would counter them so hard that they would see stars.
  8. ZenOfAnger is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/15/2009 11:04pm


     Style: Judo+soon 2b bjj,boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cy Q. Faunce View Post
    I've never heard of this third leg thing as you describe it.

    I cannot possibly believe that it would work. If someone did it to me, I believe I would counter them so hard that they would see stars.

    This is why I am asking here first, before I make more of an ass of myself when I go to a judo school this thrusday. I don't want to do something that could get me seriously hurt in randori, so I will ask the instructor before class about it, that way I won't make too much of a scene of stupidity.
    Let your anger be like a monkey trapped inside a pinata; waiting inside, hoping that the children don't break through with the stick.

    -Master Tang (Kung Pow! Enter the Fist)

    A word to the wise ain't necessary. It's the stupid ones who need the advice.
    Bill Cosby

    The believer is happy, the doubter wise.
    Greek proverb

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicko1 View Post
    Martial Talk is not neutral, it's just neutered.
  9. Yamaarashi is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/16/2009 1:34am


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Agree with CY
  10. Meex is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/16/2009 2:48am

    supporting member
     Style: Tao Ga

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This seems more of a personal trick move,
    or some short-cut that may have worked
    for them. Definitely not 'classical' technique.

    I can see the potential for training mishaps,
    like knee injuries to your training partners or,
    even back injuries to you when they stuff your
    attempts as you unbalance only 50% of their
    distributed weight.

    `~/
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