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  1. UpaLumpa is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/25/2009 1:40pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This thread just entered a whole new level of awesomeness.
  2. 1point2 is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/25/2009 1:50pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Rusher View Post
    Oops. I'm not sure how I missed that. Here's a prettier rendering of submission frequency by year for the modern period:



    I factored out submissions that only occurred once in the data, most of which are probably re-classifiable as something else. There's a bigger version going back to '93 here.
    What's the X axis?

    I really appreciate how both the relative efficacy of specific techniques (RNC, triangle, armbar, and hey why isn't keylock higher?) and the variety of submission types (smorgasbord of arm triangles, achilles, kneebars, etc) jumps out at you.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
  3. TheMightyMcClaw is offline
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    MADE OF STEEL!

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    Posted On:
    6/25/2009 1:56pm

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    This is really cool stuff. I realize that the data would be harder to sort out, but I'd love to see the same sort of chart made for a few Japanese organizations (Pride, DREAM, etc.), and see just how different they are in terms of fighters going for leglocks, gogoplatas, and otherwise lower percentage/unpopular in the US moves.
  4. Jack Rusher is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/25/2009 2:15pm


     Style: ti da shuai na

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    What's the X axis?
    Time. The left taper reflects the relative infrequency of UFC events further back in time (5 in '04, 9 in '05, 17 in '06, 18 in '07, 20 in '08), while the right taper represents the end of the dataset (only 8 events so far in '09).

    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    why isn't keylock higher?
    I'm not sure if there are keylocks hidden in some of the other numbers, or if they're really that infrequent in the UFC. I'd be delighted if someone would clean up the few questionable singletons in the data, and even more so if they'd do the same work for Pride FC.
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4
  5. 1point2 is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/25/2009 2:20pm

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    I can't believe I'm saying this, but maybe it makes sense to be judoka statisticians and combine Americanas, keylocks, and Kimuras into one lump ude garami number.

    It's all the ukemi, seeping thoughts like that into my brain.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
  6. Jack Rusher is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/25/2009 4:06pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Rusher View Post
    I'd be delighted if someone would clean up the few questionable singletons in the data, and even more so if they'd do the same work for Pride FC.
    Nevermind. I had the spare ten minutes it took to write a script to harvest the data from public sources. The list of submissions in the Pride data:

    Achilles Lock
    Anaconda Choke
    Ankle Lock
    Arm Triangle Choke
    Armbar
    Broken Hand
    Double Armbar (!)
    Elbow Injury
    Ezekiel Choke
    Flying Scissor Heel Hook
    Flying Triangle Choke
    Forearm Choke
    Gogoplata
    Guillotine Choke
    Heel Hook
    Injury
    Keylock
    Kimura
    Knee to the Body and Punches
    Knee to the Body
    Knee
    Kneebar
    Knees
    Neck Crank
    Punches
    Rear Naked Choke
    Scarf Hold (!)
    Shoulder Injury
    Single Wing Choke (?)
    Smother Choke (?)
    Strangle Choke (?)
    Strikes
    Toe Hold
    Triangle Armbar
    Triangle Choke

    ... I'll probably lump all the strike-based subs into a single category. Any preferences for the others?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    combine Americanas, keylocks, and Kimuras into one lump ude garami number.
    Keylock and americana, sure -- elbow, shoulder, whatever -- but the gyaku ude garami is a quite different -- and, in my opinion, superior -- armlock.
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4
  7. 1point2 is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/25/2009 4:11pm

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    Single wing choke with a gi: http://judoinfo.com/images/ejc/kataha.jpg

    Switch to a RNC grip with his right arm and presto-change-o it's no-gi.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
  8. Jack Rusher is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/25/2009 7:07pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    Single wing choke with a gi: http://judoinfo.com/images/ejc/kataha.jpg
    Funny, I did that to a turtled guy at BJJ 40 minutes ago.

    Switch to a RNC grip with his right arm and presto-change-o it's no-gi.
    It turns out that the one time it happened was an ezekiel performed by a gi-clad Hidehiko Yoshida on a gi-less Tank Abbott:

    Dailymotion - TANK ABBOTT VS HIDEHIKO YOSHIDA (en français) - une vidéo Sports et Extrême@@AMEPARAM@@http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/x5lwbo@@AMEPARAM@@x5lwbo
    (Yoshida rains knees on Abbott's turtled head, then spins to the back for the choke at ~11:50).
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4
  9. 1point2 is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/25/2009 7:20pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Rusher View Post
    Funny, I did that to a turtled guy at BJJ 40 minutes ago.
    I am slowly realizing that being the guy who knows the name of every judo throw, pin, choke and lock, yet can't perform any of them on a resisting opponent (or in some cases, on a non-resisting opponent), is more of a bad thing than a good thing for me. In a number of ways.

    This relates to the CMA (?) thread we had where I, Rivington, and others argued for a better term than TMA. The phrase that comes to mind right now is "theory-based martial arts", ie, wing chun, shaolin-do, and kata-based Isshinryu/OMA applications.

    Uh, sorry for the derail. Back to scheduled programming.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
  10. Jack Rusher is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/26/2009 10:07am


     Style: ti da shuai na

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    It turns out there have only been two gi chokes in Pride history, both executed by Hidehiko Yoshida. Charles "Krazy Horse" Bennett is the only man to have tapped to an ankle lock in Pride. The "Smother Choke" was Ricco Rodriguez gassed out on top of Takayuki "Giant Ochiai" Okada. There are a number of odd subs that seem linked to freak fights, but I've factored out all the one-offs to produce this visualization.

    The main trend I see between the two data sets is a higher diversity of technical submissions in Pride FC, especially leg locks. Here's a quick render of the data in a similar form to the previous UFC chart:


    (click for bigger)
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4
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