Thread: Grip Fighting (Gi)
10/14/2009 9:10am, #1
Grip Fighting (Gi)
This seems like a newb question at first but I never had a problem with it when I was a newb so I'm putting it in here. I assume that the main problem is my training partners aren't newbs anymore either but I'm sure there are some better strategies I could be using.
I have a few guys in my BJJ gym that if they get their preferred grips on my jacket I feel pretty helpless. At the same time I don't feel like it is a strength of mine. I'm always taking whatever grip i can get and never seem to be gripping the collar deep enough. Then when I do my opponent moves their head and puts my arm on the other side.
What do you guys do who feel like you have a good grip game? I know you know who you are. You're the guy who grabs my Gi then virtually staples it to the ground.
10/14/2009 11:09am, #2
MMMM Grip fighting the least understood part of standing grappling by BJJ guys. Consequentially one of the best parts of my game. I could give 2 days of grip fighting seminars and still not cover everything though.
First off I want to say I am not a total expert I just play one on the internet. Secondly, Tim and I were talking about grip fighting as it relates to BJJ. I notice a lack of proper grips by the older BJJ guys. We talked about it and he said that all you need is basic grips in BJJ. Advanced grip fighting like you see in Judo is the equivalent of a Judo guy learning reverse De La Hiva guard(I had to look up the spelling get my point) for a Judo competition. It is just not needed due to the fact that guys can just pull guard when they are getting dominated on the grips and are in fear of getting tossed. Just like a Judo guy can stand up when he is getting dominated on the mat.
If the IBJJF decides to make a no guard pull rule then I would think this will change.
Now one problem that is hurting the stand up part is going to be posture. Just like in ground work you need to have god posture. If you are just relying on your arm strength then you are screwing up. Another problem is stiff arming which is so easy to deal with just look sasae tsuri komi ashi. Learning proper footwork and grips will make take downs so much easier.
Learn to protect your lapels. Keep your hands up and catch their hands as the come in for a grip to neutralize the lapel grip. Learn to properly rip grips off. In general if someone has your lapel grip the sleeve on the seam with one hand place your other hand on the top of the wrist and use short crisp movements to slide their hand down and away to strip the grip off. Don't do it in one motion.
In your case when a guy ducks his head under your grip and your hands are on the same side of his body he should be coughing up blood from the throw you do to him. Seriously that is such a powerful grip and the throws that come from it like osotogari, taiotoshi and yamaarashi should make them see baby Jesus.
Dude you're in Atlanta go to Leo White's club for a few days!!!!!!!Judo is only gentle for the guy on top.
10/14/2009 11:18am, #3
Hmmm good post but I was talking about on the ground. I agree about throwing from that grip. My problem is when I have someone in my guard and they switch their head to the other side. It is a pretty standard way to neutralize a collar choke before it starts.
The other problem I mention is guys that just pin my Gi to the ground from side control or while on top of my half guard.
10/14/2009 11:21am, #4
WS, correct me if i am wrong, but i read your question as being about the use of grips on the the ground, rather than standing, and CJ, again correct me if i am wrong but i read your response as having to do with mostly standing (from your comment about what to do if they duck under the collar grip.)
most of my groundwork before judo has been no-gi, and i find myself regularly stalled during groundwork due to my opponent having a better gripping game than i do, making it easy for them to stop me from passing guard, or to sweep me, etc. i empathize with WS's comment about being helpless once preferred grips are established, so i subscribed to this thread.
the reason i say all that is because i was hoping to get some good pointers in the responses to WS's question. if my take on this is too basic, i will start a thread in the basic section, and apologize for crapping up this one."Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
"When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
"Without actual qualifications to be a Zen teacher, your instructor is just another roundeye raping Asian culture for a buck." - Errant108
"Seriously, who gives a **** what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj
10/14/2009 11:23am, #5
Yes indeed on the ground. Who cares about standing I can always pull guard. lol
10/14/2009 12:33pm, #6
OK shows you where my head always is ><
I am in the process of refining my guard game right now and I am using the bottom of the lapel as the basis for my gi game. I try to get it out of the belt and loop it through the armpit and over the head. I usually start with a cross choke then transition to arm bars and sweeps. When this fails I loop it over the same side arm and start the arm bar with it and transition to the scissor, flower or pendulum sweep or a triangle.
Killing dominant grips on the ground is a little tougher but I use my knees a lot to get space, apply pressure, and tear off tough grips.
So when a guy is in your guard he ducks his head under yours and you are left with a sleeve and lapel grip on the same side? If this is the case its a great place to work the scissor sweep.Judo is only gentle for the guy on top.
10/14/2009 9:33pm, #7
This past Saturday, I rolled with Eduardo Rocha who is a very good BB, very fracking I tried some of the same tricks to shake off his collar-grip and he'd start setting up another choke. Every move with him was an attack or an immobilization.
It didn't feel like he was "counter-gripping" as much as just finding something more dominant. Methodical badass he was! For the duck-under, he would just switch dominant hands and attack the choke from the other side as he was working a sweep or changing his angle/following my escape. It was all "basic" stuff just executed very well. (note to self:make the 1 hr drive to go train with him!)
I've always used elbows or shoulders to fight off grips: hold onto the attackng hand and clear my elbow over/under their forearm to create space. I do not have strong hands so ive given up on the hardass grip-fight and try to be more savvy...Many things we do naturally become difficult only when we try to make them intellectual subjects. It is possible to know so much about a subject that you become totally ignorant.
-Mentat Text Two (dicto)
10/15/2009 8:06am, #8
Another thing I talk about in grip fighting which can apply to standing or on the ground is tendencies.
Just because you have a favorite grip or technique that you WANT to do it may not be the one your body and your opponent WANTS you to do. If every time you setup a situation think about how YOU are causing your opponent to react. You may be setting them up for a different technique than the one you are planning on doing. Most of the time you can get people to generate a reaction to your liking.
BB have this ability down pat. They go for X and then hit Y,Z,P,Q, and WTF was that on people all the time. Its not that they planned anything they just went for the first technique and the know all the ins and outs of it so they can FLOW to the next one without much thought.
By garnishing a reaction with a certain grip or movement you can influence the next move and capitalize off it. So when you are rolling take note of a particular reaction that you cause every time you are rolling and learn to capitalize off of it.Judo is only gentle for the guy on top.
10/15/2009 12:38pm, #9
I'm just going to keep posting about my shortcomings RE: Gi Grips and hope people like Coach Josh keep responding.
My next pathetic failure is dealing with people who grab both my sleeves near the wrist then pull some sort of guard (butterfly, closed, de la Riva etc.)
In No-Gi I find this sort of laughable because I can circle my wrists in either direction and then baseball slide into half-guard to start working. However, in Gi this just creates a ridiculously tight grip on my wrist and I get swept really fast.
Besides just not letting someone grab both my sleeves what can I do to break this grip or take advantage of it without breaking it.
10/15/2009 1:58pm, #10
When somebody grabs me like that I like to circle my hands and grab their gi too...at least that way it is a stalemate w/ regards to control.