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  1. selfcritical is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/11/2009 8:36am


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    An odd division

    So I was talking to Omar, a local instructor of a malysian silat style (silat kuntaw tepki), which has it's roots in a lot of interaction with thai and burmese fighting styles, and fighting them. Generally speaking, the culture involved in producing the style was fighting against thai styles like krabi krabong that had both sport and war applications, and would seek to quickly close and use judo-ish throws to take it out of clinchy-kneeing range, or negate advantages in bettery weaponry.

    What I found interesting when talking to him is the way the style approaches the street/sport distinction...namely, by drawing a line somewhere else entirely.

    Rather than contrasting street to sport, they lump together all fight preperation for fights you anticipate, including sport and war, or street fighting when status is invovled, together, because they believe it's a fundamentally similar skillset (feinting, psychological preperation, establishing range and recognizing strategy), and are trained in a mostly familiar way, with sparringish methods.

    What they call "self-defense" is anything you don't expect for the initial blow, and involves executing all moves as essentially a flinch from a neutral position with no guard. This will generally be going from the "hands by the pockets" position, having the hands suddenly rise up (usually in a motion that would enable weapon access) and then trying to stick to the incoming attacker to allow a second to reorient and try to execute a throw or sweep.
  2. PointyShinyBurn is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/11/2009 9:12am

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have nothing interesting to add other than that makes a lot of sense and I like it!
  3. Ike is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/11/2009 4:27pm


     Style: Muay Thai/BJJ/Panantukan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This is how I've always understood the most important difference between "sport" and "street". It's a matter of preparation, expectation, and awareness (or lack thereof).

    Makes perfect sense to me. If you square up with your opponent in a darkened alley, it's a fight (sport). If you get slugged from behind in the same alley, it's self-defense (street).
  4. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/11/2009 4:39pm

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by selfcritical View Post
    What they call "self-defense" is anything you don't expect for the initial blow, and involves executing all moves as essentially a flinch from a neutral position with no guard. This will generally be going from the "hands by the pockets" position, ....
    This is a very important thing. It may be the only difference between a MMA sport fighter training system and a legit TMA. It is a good way to look at it. Sport fighters even start with Guard up closing, and tap of a glove these days.......

    Sparring, aliveness, and intensity should be in both, but only a TMA would consider situational awareness and surprise "flinch" responses. A sport fight would train more for longer cycles of conditioning, nutrition, and preparation for fights on scheduled dates. It is not uncommon for a point to be made that the fighter took the event on a short notice, like we should respect them for not having time to prepare. A self defense preparation does not have this type of leniency.

    I think weapons foster this type of readiness, even as sport, because they do more damage on accident in training.

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
    DTT vs Sirc

  5. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/11/2009 5:02pm

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    If you square up with your opponent in a darkened alley, it's a fight (sport). If you get slugged from behind in the same alley, it's self-defense (street).
    If you just worked 60 hours or are leaving a bar, I wouldn't call it sport. Unless thats how you would plan to prepare for a big title fight.

    Just because you have time to "square up" is not enough. Why would you "square up" anyway, in a fight for your life? It would seem instead you should launch an attack the moment the threat is real.

    Looking at how the training here was described by the OP, I see what you are saying, so I want to explore it another way. Begin by considering that before you "squared up" in that dark alley, your hands were by your side, yes?

    In EBMAS, when you recognize a legit threat, you instantly go into attack and destroy mode. You do not merely put up your guard and set up a safe distance and start circling. It is not a ring fight. This is the "flinch", from whatever you are doing: Walking, talking on a cell phone, from any side, you see it or you don't,....BAM, fight time,.....(so maybe squared up is your fight mode...)

    Training and sport sparring is when you square up and agree to a fair start. It is vitally important in EBMAS that students understand the difference, that you do not give a threat any more time. You must attack and seize the initiative. To many MA people use a training and sport sparing cadence in real
    situations. It would be comparable to a BJJ waiting for a mugger top tap out instead of just popping the joint and moving on to a choke or better position.

    Not arguing or anything, just putting a perspective on it.

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
    DTT vs Sirc

  6. Ike is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/12/2009 3:11pm


     Style: Muay Thai/BJJ/Panantukan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Having been in more than a handful of fights on "teh str33t", I can tell you that few of them felt life threatening. I think the deadliness of many street fights are exaggerated. I differentiate between a street fight and an assualt (armed or unarmed), mugging, or other unexpected attack.

    In my experience, these fights are about egos that have been fueled by booze and maybe a bit of sexual frustration. Not to say that some frat boy on a beer binge couldn't decide to curb stop me or pull out a gun, but it's unlikely. So, yes, if someone starts to encroach on my space, despite repeated attempts to defuse the situation, I start to prepare (mentally as well as physically). I square up (I'm a PFS guy, my hands come up the minute I determine there is a threat, even if it's only to bring my palms out so as to try to calm him down). I know something is coming and I'm steeling myself for it.

    That is a fight to me. Your point on preparation for fights in the ring is noted, but when I say prepared, I mean that one has his or her wits about them.

    When have I felt that the incident may be more than a masturbatory display and an actual threat to life and limb? When the guy picked up a weapon (in one case, a construction barrier), when he was with three of his friends, when I was caught by surprise on a dark street, when I was mugged, when the perp was mentallyetc.

    Two twenty-somethings shoving each other outside of a bar while hurling drunken insults is hardly a self-defense situation, in my mind. But being jumped, or mugged, or otherwise caught of guard is.

    I respect your perpesctive, but I've reached different conclusions based on my experiences and those of my training partners. Simply put, I'm not sure of the merits of approaching every street encounter as if one's life is on the line-- it can lead to regrettable results.

    I should add that I otherwise agree with your approach as far as it concerns assaults and the like, with a few nuances and caveats...
    Last edited by Ike; 6/12/2009 3:16pm at .
  7. selfcritical is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/12/2009 3:46pm


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm pretty sure that Hedge of our boards has been in more than a fair number of (completely uneccesary but emotionally satisfying) streetfights, without weapons or squads of stompy boot-thugs

    Some fights are just the product of status conflicts and young males(at least in the US, a large chunk of violence is) . These are in essence sport fights.
  8. Ike is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/12/2009 4:30pm


     Style: Muay Thai/BJJ/Panantukan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Exactly.

    I grew up in a walking-blackout of a college town in the Midwest, and 90% of fights were exactly that. Masturbatory, chest-beating, alcohol-charged ego stroking.

    This isn't to say I've never fought dirty in said fights, nor is it to say that I circled around and acted like I had a coach in my corner. But honestly, most of these "bouts" were over with a few punches or the rare clinch or takedown.
  9. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/14/2009 2:55am

    supporting member
     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I was away on a trip with no internet in my tent so I couldn't reply.

    I think you are exactly correct, when fighting becomes a well trained or well experienced thing, then even bar fights seem like less lethal events and more like "sport". It becomes harder to get the jump on you so to speak. Good MMA makes great self defense.

    As the OP started with, sport and combat are only loosely different when it comes to training and technique, and ONLY "flinch" defenses are considered "Self Defense". This was the distinction I was developing. In this case, sport and combat are like sport and street, and so self defense is really just street. Flinch is a specific set of situations that require instant reactions.

    It seems to be a real good fit for how the public here at Bullshido define TMA and MMA and street vs sport, as in training wise they should be basically the same. I was only slightly expanding the term "flinch" to include sudden onset of fighting and not just sucker punches.

    but back to Escrima,

    Rene Latosa always addresses movements from the hands down and stick low, at rest. At least for lower grades. You can't walk around with a stick up in a guard position, nor a machete, in countries where they are carried. So every altercation is going to start from low coming up. In other words, "hands by the pockets" which the OP described as Flinch. It is not just a flinch from contact, but it is also a surprise, because how did the guy get so close without you cracking him one?

    The stick ready position slowly climbs up to what you would expect as you train more, but it is parallel with the flinch idea.

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
    DTT vs Sirc

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