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  1. Clyde is offline
    Clyde's Avatar

    Kenpo Instructor

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    Posted On:
    6/05/2009 3:53pm

    supporting member
     Style: American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Bob Jones is a fraud, he took a 5th degree from my instructor, Larry Tatum, and went off the fucking deep end. Al Farnsworth did exactly the same thing after 4th.

    Now, I've known Bob since he joined the LTKKA years ago, hell, I've stayed at his house and taught in his studio. I've still got one of his Black Belts as my student, his name is Brian Hoff (someone else you can question about him), and was just in Vegas a month or so ago.

    If you want more info on this sham artist Bob Jones, feel free to contact me at kenpoprofessor@msn.com

    Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

    Clyde
    Saving Kenpo souls one at a time!

    Put down your purse!

    Speed is fine, but accuracy is final. Wyatt Earp, 1888

    "For certain 'tis a shameful spite, and dreadful to the heart,
    For an Irishman to see a fight, and not be taking part."

    --"How McPherson Held the Floor"
  2. kensei is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/06/2009 3:23pm


     Style: shotokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    WHo was a 10th dan in Shotokan...right their I would say he was full of it! Not to offend to much but alot of these "new age" martial arts guys end up gooing off the deap end. The hard work and ass busting to just get a real 4th dan does not appeal to them so they slack, dump time into running a dojo and not training and helping the org, and then they get/take a 7-10 dan for their own. it makes me laugh a bit and makes me sad alot!!!!
  3. kenpostudent is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/06/2009 4:04pm


     Style: American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kensei View Post
    WHo was a 10th dan in Shotokan...right their I would say he was full of it! Not to offend to much but alot of these "new age" martial arts guys end up gooing off the deap end. The hard work and ass busting to just get a real 4th dan does not appeal to them so they slack, dump time into running a dojo and not training and helping the org, and then they get/take a 7-10 dan for their own. it makes me laugh a bit and makes me sad alot!!!!
    Ok, from talking to former students of Jones, Jones claimed a 4th degree black belt in Jung Sim Do (later, he said the name of the system was Jung Shin Do, the distinction being that his instructor broke away from the Jung Sim Do crowd). At the time, whatever rank Jones claimed was not a big deal because he didn't teach Jung Sim (Shin) Do. He was an American Kenpo Instructor who held a 5th degree black belt from Larry Tatum.

    Apparently, Jones felt that Larry Tatum was not promoting him fast enough, so, he partnered with another studio owner in Colorado (Bob Austin) and formed a kenpo organization called the IKKS. He gathered some friends to sit on his board and the board collectively promoted him to 6th degree black belt in American Kenpo. Larry Tatum was not very happy about this. Then, Jones stole a 5th degree black belt student from Mr. Tatum. Tatum responded by kicking Jones out of the LTKKA. Jones then created his own system of Wu Shen Pai Kenpo. The basis of his new system is his claimed 7th degree black belt from Doug Vess (but he privately claimed a 4th degree from 2003-2005). Interestingly, in 2005, he somehow skipped 3 dan rankings and was promoted to 7th by Doug Vess, despite the fact that Doug Vess never once set foot in his dojo and there is no evidence Jones ever visited this shadowy Doug Vess.

    Jones then flew Phil Porter out to his dojo and was promoted to 7th Dan in Wu Shen Pai Kenpo. In the ensuing 4 years, Jones started associating with kung fu stylists; so, he changed the name of his system from Wu Shen Pai Kenpo to Wu Shen Pai Chuan Fa Gung Fu and began to adopt chinese titles (Sifu, Sigung, Wosu, ect.). He now calls his school a kwoon instead of a dojo.

    No one has ever seen this Doug Vess. Jones claims to have written authorization from Doug Vess to teach Jung Shin Do... whatever that means. Anyone can write a letter and sign it. When I attempted to research Doug Vess and the World Jung Shin Do Association, I came up with nothing.

    Jones is from Pennsylvania (Lancaster, I believe). Former students of his tell me that he claims to have studied Jung Sim (Shin) do as a kid, roughly between the ages of 12 and 20. The only Doug Vess who is a grandmaster of any martial art that is listed anywhere online lived in Roanoke, Virginia and was a 10th degree black belt in Shotokan. He died in 2000 and has a memorial tournament named after him. There is no record of any other Doug Vess or a World Jung Shin Do Association. Jones has refused to provided dates and locations of his training with Doug Vess.

    The best timeline that I can piece together regarding Jones's training history is as follows:

    Early 70s: he claims to have studied Jung Sim Do under Doug Vess

    In the early 80s, he moved to Downey, CA and claims to have studied under Joo Bang Lee in Hwrangdo. Joo Bang Lee has no recollection of a Bob Jones.

    In the late 80s, Jones began to study with Bruce and Lois Thomson in American Kenpo and earned a 2nd degree black belt. However, per Bruce Thomson, Jones was cross-rated into American Kenpo as a 1st degree black belt based upon his previous training (which no one can verify).

    Thomson, at Parker's direction, booted Jones out of the IKKA and revoked his 2nd black certification for discipline problems. Sometime after Ed Parker's death in 1992, Jones approached Paul Mills to become his student. Mills either reinstated his 2nd degree black belt or had no knowledge of his dismissal from the IKKA (email confirmation from Paul Mills is still pending). Mills promoted him to 3rd degree black belt and asked him to leave the AKKI for disciplinary reasons.

    Jones then became a student of John Sepulveda and was promoted by him to 4th Dan. Per Clyde, Jones left the AKKS because of he did not feel he was being promoted to 5th Dan quickly enough. Larry Tatum accepted Jones as a student and promoted him to 5th Dan after a few years of study with him. As previously mentioned, Jones was dismissed from the LTKKA for stealing a student from Larry Tatum.

    From testimony from three of Jones's former students, no mention of a 7th Dan in Jung Shin Do, a Diploma in Oriental Medicine, or training in Kenjutsu was ever mentioned until Jones left the LTKKA. 3 dan ranks, mastery in a sword art, and healing arts training literally materialized out of thin air.
  4. kenpostudent is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/06/2009 4:16pm


     Style: American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Email from my roommate to Clyde:

    I do have one question for you, sir. Would Larry Tatum have taken Bob Jones in as a 5th Degree black belt had he known that Bruce Thomson was directed by Mr. Parker to revoke his 2nd Degree certificate?

    Clyde's response:

    At the time, Bob was part of the AKKS and was promoted to fourth by them. A few years later, they refused to give him his fifth and he came to Larry. He thought he should get his 5th right away and Larry made him wait a few years. He promoted him to 5th when I got my 7th. That really pissed him off, he thought he was worthy of more rank, and extremely jealous of mine, and my skills as well LOL. I went in his studio to get his 5th cert. but he had put it away, possibly anticipating just such an action on my part as it happened before LOL. He called 911, and when he couldn't get thru, he set off his building alarm to get them to come. He's as much a martial arts master as I am claiming to be a porn star, though I'd love to be one LOL,

    He also had a spat with Skip Hancock for awhile that didn't go well LOL.


    So, Jones is obviously "The Deadly" since he had to call 911 AND set off his building alarm just in response to Clyde showing up at his studio. Anyone who has shared the mats with Clyde will tell you that he is very tough, but come on! A true 7th Dan should still have some balls.
  5. kenpostudent is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2009 8:54pm


     Style: American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    After talking with Clyde this weekend, my google-fu has improved. I found auto-archives of Bob Jones's website going back to December 2003. So, take a look a Jones's current bio:

    http://www.eastwestkenpokarate.com/E...ung_Jones.html

    He clearly states:
    "Since December 2003, He (SIC) has held a 7th Dan in Jung Shin Do."

    However, look at the auto-archive of his website from December 2003:

    http://web.archive.org/web/200312030...terTheArt.html

    He publicly claimed a 5th Dan in Jung Shin Do at that time.

    Now, if you go back to September 2003, you can clearly see that he publicly claimed a 4th Dan in Jung Sim Hapkido:

    http://web.archive.org/web/200310021...terTheArt.html

    In December 2004, he claimed a 6th Dan in Jung Shin Do:

    http://web.archive.org/web/200410122...terTheArt.html

    So, in three months, from September 2003 to December 2003, how did he go from 4th to 5th Dan while simultaneously changing the name of the arts? He was either lying before or he is lying now. I call bullshido!
  6. SenecaHighlnder is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/10/2009 3:10am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Clyde Saved Me from Mr. Jones!!

    Honestly, I can't believe I'm reading all this stuff.

    I stumbled on this forum topic somehow while looking for something completely different...and that's kinda weird considering my recent experience with Robert Jones. I'll try to keep it short, but I hope you find something useful in it.

    First, a brief bio...I started in Tracy Kenpo back when I was about 9 or 10 years old. I studied until my early 20's when a BMX racing injury sidelined me for several months. In that time, I took more to music and put my martial arts training in the back seat. I regret that now, but with my shoulder popping out on me all the time whenever I tried to work out, I thought my karate days were done.

    Recently, I realized how much I missed serious training. Up to this point, it was only an occasional stretch-out and throw a few kicks. I know my range of motion in my shoulder quite well now, so it's no longer much a problem. If it does goes out, it doesn't bother me much any more.

    So I decided to find a Kenpo school and get back into serious training...and here's where the Bob Jones story begins for me.

    Before I found a school, I took advantage of the internet to find as much as I could to "catch up" with my techniques and forms, which were buried in 15 years worth of cobwebs. It's the most I've ever done with YouTube. I knew of Mr. Tatum back when I was a pup, and after finding everything I could on him and seeing how far he had come, I decided I wanted to join one of his schools and work toward possibly becoming one of his students some day.

    First of all, Mr. Jones still has pictures of Mr. Tatum, as well as Mr. Parker, all over his school, which is quite nice in itself. I was impressed right away, and Mr. Jones seemed like a likeable guy. A bit arrogant, but I could deal with that. His bio information certainly made me wonder how I hadn't heard of him before, but I had been out of it for a while, so I didn't concern myself with that. ...and by the way, he's wearing an 8th degree now.

    I had earned a green belt before I left training before, and I was willing to begin over again, especially since I was going from Tracy to (I thought...) American. I didn't think anything about the name "Wu Shen Pai," thinking it was just the name of his school.

    Having come from the Tracy system, I didn't immediately recognize the differences between what Mr. Jones was teaching and real American Kenpo. It wasn't until a couple issues came up that I began to question what was going on.

    First, he made quite a few disparaging comments about Mr. Tatum which made me think that there was bad blood there of some kind. Strange considering Mr. Tatum's pictures were all over the place and I thought at the time that it was a Tatum school.

    Second, when I finally asked when I could schedule my private sessions, he informed me that private sessions cost "extra," and that the training is done is group classes only. This didn't seem like a good way of teaching, since everyone learns at a different pace. When I questioned him on it, I got nearly the exact same response that Mr. Alexander got regarding "I am the master, and I set the standard," making me feel like I was being disrespectful.

    When I read how he states that "my students and the strength of their art speaks for itself"... I think I heard that one too...when I was implying that private instruction benefits both the students AND instructors. I also had the nerve to suggest that, given 15 years of training in my past, I might progress faster than the average white belt. Oops...of course, he responded by trying to tear me down in every way he could...from my stances to my basics, and my conditioning. He said I had a "Shotokan" delivery on everything I did. That's funny... I never studied Shotokan....and would that necessarily be a bad thing?

    On that note, regarding his students and the "strength of their art," at somewhere in my early 40's and out of training for 15 years, I had better form and technique than most of his brown and black belts. A couple of them were absolutely terrible.

    As for paying extra for private sessions, there's no mention of that in his handbook. On page 23 of his Black Belt Training Program, version 4.1, under "Extra Help," it clearly states that if a private lesson is desired, it can be scheduled, with no mention of extra cost.

    The third incident concerned a medical issue. I often poked fun at myself for being the "old guy passed out in the back of the class," because of my lack of conditioning at the time, but at the peak of allergy season, my athsma kicks in pretty good. Most of the time, it's well controlled, but certain times of the year it can hit me hard. On this particular day...sometime in April of this year...I barely made it through work, and I stopped by the school to tell Mr. Jones I wouldn't be in class that night due to nearly zero blood oxygen. I had been working out hard all week, and with the allergies, it finally caught up to me. He and one of his black belts, Josh Bond, took me to task in front of several other students, as if I was pussing out on them and I should work through it. Never mind I was leaning on his counter at the moment because it was too hard for me to stand up straight for more than a few minutes. Mr. Jones then tried to tell me that his Phd, or whatever he claims he has in Oriental Medicine, would save me if I happened to go into respiratory arrest. I was thinking, "yeah, ok...how 'bout I just take the night off and not worry about it???"

    Another weird thing was his policy that forbids any of this students from working out with ANYBODY outside the school. That includes friends, relatives, other Kenpo students...anybody. How do you go into a tournament, or even a street fight, without ever having experienced fighting against someone from a different style?

    Want another one? How about that Mr. Jones claimes to be a descendant of the Scottish MacLeod clan. Any wonder he has Highlander memoribilia in his office?

    Beginners aren't even allowed to watch advanced classes, even though the whole school is glass. I didn't actually witness anybody being asked to leave because an advanced class was going on, but I wouldn't be surprised. I'd be pretty pissed off myself if he told my kid he couldn't watch the adults work out from the other room. He might learn something from it! In fact, according to the handbook, permission to watch ANY class has to be granted by the "head instructor." I wonder why there's a seating area in there...

    I already had enough to not want to go back to his school, and now after being called out and embarrassed in front of several other students, I was actually pissed off, and I was definitely done with him. Unfortunately, after the first couple of classes, he pulled me into the office and ran me through his contract before I realized I was in the wrong place. I needed guidance on how to deal with this, and I contacted another name I remember from my earlier training...Stephen LaBounty.

    Mr. LaBounty graciously responded immediately, and not only told me that Mr. Jones had been dismissed by "at least two instructors, including Larry Tatum" but put me in touch with Clyde O'Briant.

    Clyde was cool enough to spend nearly two hours on the phone with me talking at first about Mr. Jones, but then about Kenpo. Not only was it very entertaining, but very enlightening. He taught me a lot on the phone that night, and also put me at ease about whether I was making the right decision. Any student would be lucky to have Clyde for a teacher.

    I then found the school I'm at now...Karate Nation here in Vegas. My instructors are Jeff Hurbace (primarily) and John Kelleher. Both are great teachers, and ...if you don't mind me taking a little credit here... Clyde's student, Brian Hoff, has become part of the school as well after being told about it by Clyde. He reflects a lot of what Clyde was talking to me about that night, and he's great to have there.

    The last conversation I had with Mr. Jones, he was trying to justify the way he treated me the day I missed class, and also said a lot of the same things he wrote in his responses to Mr. Alexander...especially about him being "the Master." He then bashed me some more and told me I was being "dishonorable." I then received a collection notice from his money people who want something like $16,000 for breach of contract. Good luck...

    Sorry for the length, but I wanted to add my two cents on Mr. Jones. It's funny, because I also knew Mr. Farnsworth, and I didn't think I would run into another one like him. It was pretty early when Mr. Jones began to remind me a lot of Mr. Farnsworth that I really began to be concerned, and I wish I would have gone with my gut at that point.

    The main difference is that Mr. Farnsworth, in spite of being in this very bad category, was a friend of mine outside the school, and I miss him. I trained with him briefly and knew what he was about, but I had known him since I was a young purple belt in Sifu McKinney's school here in the early 80's and we got along pretty well. He became one of my biggest fans when I turned to music. He was only a green belt when I was purple, which is one of the depressing things that makes me wonder where I would be now if I had not walked away before. Well...I try not to think about that.

    If I can help in any way, let me know. If I remember anything else, I'll add it. Thank you for the additional info you uncovered. It may be very useful if I end up in court over this contract.

    Shannon
  7. kenpostudent is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/10/2009 11:13am


     Style: American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Shannon, if you end up in court over that contract, PM me and I'll look it over for you. If I can't help you, I'll find someone at the Boyd School of Law who can.
  8. SenecaHighlnder is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/10/2009 2:09pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kenpostudent View Post
    Shannon, if you end up in court over that contract, PM me and I'll look it over for you. If I can't help you, I'll find someone at the Boyd School of Law who can.
    Thank you, Sir... I certainly will. ...and thank you for calling this guy out the way you did. If this keeps one person from making the mistake of joining his school, you did a great service.
  9. kenpostudent is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/10/2009 2:57pm


     Style: American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Your post was hilarious. Bob is just like that. I remember confronting him when he accused Brian Hoff of being a "sexual predator" for engaging in a completely consentual relationship with one of his students. That language is very defammatory and conjures images of child molestation. Jones said that Brian was a sexual predator because he was "an assistant instructor" at his school and sleeping with students. According to Brian, Jones never paid him and he only volunteered to teach morning classes. Since he was never on Jones's payroll, how could he be considered part of the staff? So, basically, Brian was being a guy who had a relationship with an adult student, but Jones thought it was reasonable to label him as a "sexual predator." Jones also had the audacity to accuse Larry Tatum of raping a student back in 1987... he says that he has an tape of an answering machine message where the "alleged" victim phoned Mr. Parker. I asked him to break out the tape, but he said it was not in his possession but "in safe hands." Of course, there was never an mention of this tape thereafter nor were charges ever filed back in 1987. Jones probably made that up to slander Mr. Tatum.

    I have had contact with both Jones and Josh Bond at seminars. Josh is a talented martial artist who would be a BEAST if he studied at a decent kenpo school or an MMA gym. The kid could actually be a fighter if he learned some bJJ. Sadly, he is under Jones's spell.

    Jones has decent kenpo... but I call it "show and tell" kenpo. He can demonstrate the techniques and look very impressive against compliant opponents. As soon as you introduce resistance, he will label you as "unteachable" or "unwilling to take direction." I have NEVER seen the guy spar... not once. I've only seen him demonstrate self-defence techniques on compliant dummies. If there were sparring sessions at a seminar, he would suddenly develop an injury or find an excuse to cut out. Clyde said that Jones refused repeated invitations to spar.

    Jones uses the term "shoto-kenpo" quite a bit to describe motion that he does not like. He seems fascinated with that "delivery system" and disparages it quite a bit. Basically, "shoto-kenpo" is any strike delivered with speed or power, as Jones prefers tappity-tap bullshit to real striking.
  10. SenecaHighlnder is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/10/2009 10:31pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I liked Josh. I never had an issue with him...he was just echoing everything Mr. Jones was saying that day, using himself as an example of being able to "get over" asthma... which you don't really do. He probably has a mild case that rarely bothers him, or it bothered him for his younger years and subsided. I have a moderate case that bothers me certain times of the year because it's usually triggered by allergies. But I thought he was pretty cool actually. I never saw him in action much because I think he had an injury going on at the time.

    Everything Jones does is about ego. Just look at the signature of his e-mails...he just needs to impress people to make himself feel better. Nobody I've gotten messages from, including Clyde O'Briant and Steve LaBounty, has that stuff in their signature. He's apparently very insecure and needs people to be impressed with him to feel better. If you question him or anything about him, his ego goes into panic mode. Al Farnsworth was the same way.

    How do these guys get away with this?
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