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  1. kenpostudent is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/04/2009 4:32pm


     Style: American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Wu Shen Pai Chuan Fa Gung Fu?

    Please refer to this link for the following post:

    http://www.eastwestkenpokarate.com/E...ung_Jones.html

    So, this is obviously a made-up system, since the head instructor and "founder" was promoted to 6th and 7th degrees by Phil Porter. However, I wanted to investigate some of his claims regarding his training. So, I had my roommate send him an email. Unfortunately, this guy knows me because my instructor was his former student before he was thrown out of the LTKKA.

    I have vacilated on whether or not to do an investigation of the guy because his claims are not SO outlandish. However, I decided to have my roomate as for verification of some of his uncorroborated claims. Here is his email and Bob Jones's response:

    Sigung Jones,

    Let me introduce myself. My name is Madison Alexander, and I am a local photographer. I am looking for a martial arts school, and I just have a few questions for you after reading you site. I have encountered numerous frauds and charlatans in martials arts, so I like to do my homework and due diligence before joining a school. My primary martial arts background is in Muay Thai, boxing, and wrestling. I have seen many videos and demonstrations of kenpo and find it that it looks effective but not as damaging on the body. I'm really looking for an art that I can practice for life. So, my hope is to get some information and schedule a meeting with you at your school. First, I hope you won't mind anwering a few of my questions. I hope this does not sound like an interrogation, as this is not my intent.

    I have seen a few claims on your website that I would like further clarification on:

    1. "He also studied Hwa Rang Do under the personal tutelage of Supreme Grand Master Joo Bang Lee."
    Approximately when and how long did you study Hwa Rang Do with Joo Bang Lee? What rank did you achieve? I am familiar with his Dojo, as I grew up in Downey, CA. He was a good martial artist.
    2. "He studied the art of Jung Shin Do and has achieved a 7th Degree Black Belt in that discipline. He remains a personal disciple of the Grandmaster of that art Do Joo Nim Douglas Vess. Since, December of 2003, He has held a 7th Dan in Jung Shin Do."

    When and where did you study with Doug Vess? I ask only because I can find on reference to the man on the internet outside of your biography or reposts of your bio. Where was his school? How long was it open? Does he have other senior students still teaching? Would you by chance have contact info for Doug Vess? I just find it odd that I cannot locate one reference to the Grandmaster of a system on the internet. Maybe he is just not a computer savvy guy. How come you have no pictures of your Master on your website?
    3. "Dr. Jones is also the inherited Doshu of Washin-ryu Kamishin-kai Kenjutsu. He has studied this sword art since 1979 under the direction of the 7th Doshu, Grandmaster Douglas Vess, now retired."

    I can find no reference to this sword art on the internet, either. I thought Doug Vess studied a Korean system. Isn't Kenjutsu a Japanese art? Forgive me for my ignorance. I am just confused. Please shed some light on the history of the art and how the Japanese and Korean heritages coalesced.
    4. "He is certified as a Diplomate in Oriental Medicine through the Tae Geuk Healing Arts Institute."

    Where is the Tae Geuk Healing Arts Institute and when did you study there? What were the requirements to earn a Diplomate in Oriental Medicine? Again, I can find no independent confirmation of the existence of this school on the internet. Would you be willing to provide their contact info?
    Other than these areas, I am very comfortable with the representations made on your bio and website. I am not calling you a liar, I simply require some independent confirmation of these representations. I appreciate your help in overcoming my ingrained skepticism. However, this is a quality that has saved me lots of heartache over the years. It is my sincere hope that we can forge fruitful training relationship once these matters are addressed.

    Sincerely,



    Madison Alexander

    Mr. Alexander,

    My background is what it is and is as stated. If you wish to apply to become a student, then please do so. The question for me is whether YOU would make a good fit for me.

    Respectfully,


    Sigung Robert L. Jones, Ph.D.
    8th Degree Black belt, Associate Master of the Art
    President, International Kenpo Karate Society
    Headquarters: East West International Black Belt Academy
    2301 E. Sunset Road, Suite 23
    Las Vegas, NV
    89119
    Phone: (702) 260-4552
    IKKS Offices: (702) 914-5425
    Fax: (419) 844-2096
    websites:
    http://eastwestkenpokarate.com
    http://ikkskenpo.com


    My roommate's response to which there is no reply as of the time of this posting:

    Sigung Jones,

    I would refer you to your website:


    "Credentials are necessary for any "professional" in their field. Most would not seek the advice of a physician who flunked medical school, or retain a lawyer that attended 1⁄2 of law school. When seeking a martial arts teacher, find someone that is authorized by their teacher. To aid in determining the qualifications of a potential martial arts teacher ask the following questions:

    1.Who's their teacher?

    2.Do they still train with their teacher?

    3.Do they have authorization to teach?

    4.View their "teaching license".

    5.To validate their claims, ask "May I speak with your teacher?"

    6.If their teacher has passed away, or is retired, did they receive permission to teach before he or she passed away or before he or she retired?



    Some martial artists may feel interrogated by this line of questioning. We recommend having a very respectful approach, in an effort not to offend the authentic teacher."

    I am just asking you to do what you recommend students to do when attempting to find a qualified teacher. Please do not take offense to my inquiries. You list a very impressive list of credentials. I am just asking you to provide verification on those that I cannot verify. A man of integrity with nothing to hide should have no trouble doing this.
    I have contacted several of the instructors that you have listed on your bio and they speak highly of you. The one exception is when I called Grandmaster Joo Bang Lee. He said that he has no recollection of you. Now, he is an older man. I maybe he doesn't remember every student he has taught over his career. However, you bio states that you studied under his PERSONAL tutelage. If you have dates when you studied with him or a certificate from him, that would go a long way in clearing this up.
    Furthermore, I cannot find a Doug Vess anywhere on the internet. I have googled the system, the man, and even contacted three Jung Sim Do schools listed online. None of them have heard of Doug Vess either. Here is a list of schools that I have contacted:
    http://www.jungsimdo.com/
    http://www.jung-sim-do.com/

    http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~dsojsdma/
    Not one of them has heard of Doug Vess. Can you explain that? Couple the fact that I cannot find any info on Doug Vess with the apparent non-existence of the Tae Guek Institute of Healing Arts and the lack of resources available on your system of Kenjustsu, can you blame me for being skeptical? The tone of your response and your blatant attempt to turn tables on me are reminiscent of the kinds of responses made by frauds and charlatans. Keep in mind that I am not accusing you of anything. I am only very respectfully asking for dates of training with Joo Bang Lee, rank earned from him, dates of training with Doug Vess, locations where you trained with him (city and state), location of the Tae Guek Healing Arts Institute, dates attended, curriculum of study, and background on your sword system. If you were to hire me as a photographer, wouldn't you wan to know my background to prove that I was not a hack? I think the proliferation of fraudulent grandmasters in todays martial arts world warrants the due diligence. Furthermore, YOU, not I, have publicly made the claims of your experience. Since hold a PhD., I know you are familiar with the vetting process. If you teach for a university, you are asked to verify you PhD. first. My hope is that you can provide basic details of your training. I hope this does not come off as disrespectful. No other teacher as been offended by this request, except the frauds, of course.
    Sincerely,

    Madison Alexander
    My issues with the Sigung Jones are as follows:

    1. He claims to be the student and disciple of a grandmaster who does not exist per google.

    2. He claims to be a student of another grandmaster who has no recollection of Jones.

    3. He claims a Diplomate in Oriental Medicine from a school that does not appear to exist.

    4. He claims to have inherited a sword art from the grandmaster of a unverifiable Korean system when the art has a Japanese name.

    5. He refuses to provide any details of his training.

    He is a legitimate 5th Degree under Larry Tatum, though. The rest of his claims I cannot verify, and he refuses to verify. If there are any bullies that would like to take another crack at the guy or help me in any way with the investigation, I would appreciate it. If he is claming rank he is not entitled to and credentials that he cannot verify, that is the essence of bullshido.


  2. kenpostudent is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/04/2009 4:47pm


     Style: American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Another response from Bob Jones:

    Mr. Alexander,

    The tone you take is VERY DISRESPECTFUL. If you were in fact studying kenjutsu with me, then fine, you are not. If you are in fact being certified by me in a healing arts capacity, then fine, you are not. I am not now nor do I ever represent myself as a Hwa Rang Do instructor. Therefore, the dates, etc. are irrelevant. Currently, my teacher is retired and does not wish to be molested. I respect that, I would ask that you do as well. I have written certification from him and MORE TO THE POINT, I have written credentials in my own system. The part you take from my website, as usual, is misapplied. It is not designed to reference a Grandmaster Instructor. I am who I am and I have nothing to hide. The fact that I do not choose to open my life to every Tom Dick or Harry who might wish for me to do so is no evidence of this. The proof of authenticity is in the teaching. None of the schools you have contacted are relevant. You have not even shared the mat. At this point I am disinterested in having you as a student. I always wonder who folks are shilling for when they come off so disrespectfully. Best of luck.
    \


    Roommate's response:

    Sigung Jones,


    I schill for no one. I am currently a student of no one. I am looking for a school. You have a commercial business and have made public representations. How come you refuse to verify them? I don't need to speak to Doug Vess, but it would be helpful if you just stated when and where you trained with him. It would also be helpful to state when you trained with Joo Bang Lee. You made the claim. I don't see how requiring basic details is so disrespectful.


    So, because you claim to be a grandmaster you are exempt from scrutiny? I fail to see the logic in that. I can know of several organization where I can claim to be a grandmaster, pay a fee, and get a belt. Does that also exclude me from scrutiny and allow me to open a commercial school and charge for lessons? I doubt you will agree. So, how do you justify your attempt to avoid basic due diligence?


    You claim to be a healing arts instructor and claim certification in that discipline. Would you visit a health care provider without some verification of credentials? At least a doctor or nurse has a board certification, whereby, someone else does the verification for me. You have never had to face such scrutiny, so I believe my questions are warranted.


    I understand if you do not wish to have me as a student. However, you should be able to answer basic questions as to your credentials. If you cannot or will not, you should retract those statements on your website.


    Madison Alexander

    Something doesn't smell right!
  3. kenpostudent is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/04/2009 5:00pm


     Style: American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Another response from Bob Jones:

    Mr. Alexander,

    I have a traditional martial arts kwoon, not as you state, a commercial business. The public representations I have made are true. You have obviously contacted several individuals connected with my Board, and that is my current accountability. The references have, by your own admission, checked out. I do not believe I remember ever seeing you listed as the “martial arts sheriff” and certainly my students and the strength of their art speaks for itself. As I said, you have not even graced the kwoon with your presence and have not shared the mats with ANY of my students and Black Belts. Nor will you. The reason is the way in which you go about things. You are the STUDENT and not the MASTER. It is not your place to run a background investigation on me. If you wish to study elsewhere because I choose not to be treated in this fashion, so be it. In fact, that is exactly what I am urging you to do. Your attitude would not be conducive to learning in my kwoon as you feel that you are the standard of excellence. Since we have agreed that I somehow fail to meet your stringent requirements, then your questions are moot. Nor is it your place to tell me what to put up or take down on my website. Again, best of luck,

    Sigung Jones
  4. 1point2 is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/04/2009 5:07pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 剛 and 柔

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Please retype these in a more readable format. Consistent font styles (one for Guy A, another for Roommate B, maybe), or quote blocks. Plus, can you summarize for me? I'm not clear who did what to whom, when and why.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
  5. kenpostudent is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/04/2009 5:23pm


     Style: American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Will do.
  6. kenpostudent is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/04/2009 5:33pm


     Style: American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Please refer to this link for the following post:

    http://www.eastwestkenpokarate.com/E...ung_Jones.html

    So, this is obviously a made-up system, since the head instructor and "founder" was promoted to 6th and 7th degrees by Phil Porter. However, I wanted to investigate some of his claims regarding his training. So, I had my roommate send him an email. Unfortunately, this guy knows me because my instructor was his former student before he was thrown out of the LTKKA.

    I have vacilated on whether or not to do an investigation of the guy because his claims are not SO outlandish. However, I decided to have my roomate as for verification of some of his uncorroborated claims. Here is his email and Bob Jones's response:

    Sigung Jones,

    Let me introduce myself. My name is Madison Alexander, and I am a local photographer. I am looking for a martial arts school, and I just have a few questions for you after reading you site. I have encountered numerous frauds and charlatans in martials arts, so I like to do my homework and due diligence before joining a school. My primary martial arts background is in Muay Thai, boxing, and wrestling. I have seen many videos and demonstrations of kenpo and find it that it looks effective but not as damaging on the body. I'm really looking for an art that I can practice for life. So, my hope is to get some information and schedule a meeting with you at your school. First, I hope you won't mind anwering a few of my questions. I hope this does not sound like an interrogation, as this is not my intent.

    I have seen a few claims on your website that I would like further clarification on:

    1. "He also studied Hwa Rang Do under the personal tutelage of Supreme Grand Master Joo Bang Lee."

    Approximately when and how long did you study Hwa Rang Do with Joo Bang Lee? What rank did you achieve? I am familiar with his Dojo, as I grew up in Downey, CA. He was a good martial artist.
    2. "He studied the art of Jung Shin Do and has achieved a 7th Degree Black Belt in that discipline. He remains a personal disciple of the Grandmaster of that art Do Joo Nim Douglas Vess. Since, December of 2003, He has held a 7th Dan in Jung Shin Do."

    When and where did you study with Doug Vess? I ask only because I can find on reference to the man on the internet outside of your biography or reposts of your bio. Where was his school? How long was it open? Does he have other senior students still teaching? Would you by chance have contact info for Doug Vess? I just find it odd that I cannot locate one reference to the Grandmaster of a system on the internet. Maybe he is just not a computer savvy guy. How come you have no pictures of your Master on your website?
    3. "Dr. Jones is also the inherited Doshu of Washin-ryu Kamishin-kai Kenjutsu. He has studied this sword art since 1979 under the direction of the 7th Doshu, Grandmaster Douglas Vess, now retired."

    I can find no reference to this sword art on the internet, either. I thought Doug Vess studied a Korean system. Isn't Kenjutsu a Japanese art? Forgive me for my ignorance. I am just confused. Please shed some light on the history of the art and how the Japanese and Korean heritages coalesced.

    4. "He is certified as a Diplomate in Oriental Medicine through the Tae Geuk Healing Arts Institute."

    Where is the Tae Geuk Healing Arts Institute and when did you study there? What were the requirements to earn a Diplomate in Oriental Medicine? Again, I can find no independent confirmation of the existence of this school on the internet. Would you be willing to provide their contact info?

    Other than these areas, I am very comfortable with the representations made on your bio and website. I am not calling you a liar, I simply require some independent confirmation of these representations. I appreciate your help in overcoming my ingrained skepticism. However, this is a quality that has saved me lots of heartache over the years. It is my sincere hope that we can forge fruitful training relationship once these matters are addressed.

    Sincerely,



    Madison Alexander

    Mr. Alexander,

    My background is what it is and is as stated. If you wish to apply to become a student, then please do so. The question for me is whether YOU would make a good fit for me.

    Respectfully,


    Sigung Robert L. Jones, Ph.D.
    8th Degree Black belt, Associate Master of the Art
    President, International Kenpo Karate Society
    Headquarters: East West International Black Belt Academy
    2301 E. Sunset Road, Suite 23
    Las Vegas, NV
    89119
    Phone: (702) 260-4552
    IKKS Offices: (702) 914-5425
    Fax: (419) 844-2096
    websites:
    http://eastwestkenpokarate.com
    http://ikkskenpo.com

    My roommate's response to which there is no reply as of the time of this posting:

    Sigung Jones,

    I would refer you to your website:



    "Credentials are necessary for any "professional" in their field. Most would not seek the advice of a physician who flunked medical school, or retain a lawyer that attended 1⁄2 of law school. When seeking a martial arts teacher, find someone that is authorized by their teacher. To aid in determining the qualifications of a potential martial arts teacher ask the following questions:

    1.Who's their teacher?

    2.Do they still train with their teacher?

    3.Do they have authorization to teach?

    4.View their "teaching license".

    5.To validate their claims, ask "May I speak with your teacher?"

    6.If their teacher has passed away, or is retired, did they receive permission to teach before he or she passed away or before he or she retired?



    Some martial artists may feel interrogated by this line of questioning. We recommend having a very respectful approach, in an effort not to offend the authentic teacher."

    I am just asking you to do what you recommend students to do when attempting to find a qualified teacher. Please do not take offense to my inquiries. You list a very impressive list of credentials. I am just asking you to provide verification on those that I cannot verify. A man of integrity with nothing to hide should have no trouble doing this.
    I have contacted several of the instructors that you have listed on your bio and they speak highly of you. The one exception is when I called Grandmaster Joo Bang Lee. He said that he has no recollection of you. Now, he is an older man. I maybe he doesn't remember every student he has taught over his career. However, you bio states that you studied under his PERSONAL tutelage. If you have dates when you studied with him or a certificate from him, that would go a long way in clearing this up.
    Furthermore, I cannot find a Doug Vess anywhere on the internet. I have googled the system, the man, and even contacted three Jung Sim Do schools listed online. None of them have heard of Doug Vess either. Here is a list of schools that I have contacted:
    http://www.jungsimdo.com/
    http://www.jung-sim-do.com/

    http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~dsojsdma/
    Not one of them has heard of Doug Vess. Can you explain that? Couple the fact that I cannot find any info on Doug Vess with the apparent non-existence of the Tae Guek Institute of Healing Arts and the lack of resources available on your system of Kenjustsu, can you blame me for being skeptical? The tone of your response and your blatant attempt to turn tables on me are reminiscent of the kinds of responses made by frauds and charlatans. Keep in mind that I am not accusing you of anything. I am only very respectfully asking for dates of training with Joo Bang Lee, rank earned from him, dates of training with Doug Vess, locations where you trained with him (city and state), location of the Tae Guek Healing Arts Institute, dates attended, curriculum of study, and background on your sword system. If you were to hire me as a photographer, wouldn't you wan to know my background to prove that I was not a hack? I think the proliferation of fraudulent grandmasters in todays martial arts world warrants the due diligence. Furthermore, YOU, not I, have publicly made the claims of your experience. Since hold a PhD., I know you are familiar with the vetting process. If you teach for a university, you are asked to verify you PhD. first. My hope is that you can provide basic details of your training. I hope this does not come off as disrespectful. No other teacher as been offended by this request, except the frauds, of course.
    Sincerely,

    Madison Alexander


    My issues with the Sigung Jones are as follows:

    1. He claims to be the student and disciple of a grandmaster who does not exist per google.

    2. He claims to be a student of another grandmaster who has no recollection of Jones.

    3. He claims a Diplomate in Oriental Medicine from a school that does not appear to exist.

    4. He claims to have inherited a sword art from the grandmaster of a unverifiable Korean system when the art has a Japanese name.

    5. He refuses to provide any details of his training.

    He is a legitimate 5th Degree under Larry Tatum, though. The rest of his claims I cannot verify, and he refuses to verify. If there are any bullies that would like to take another crack at the guy or help me in any way with the investigation, I would appreciate it. If he is claming rank he is not entitled to and credentials that he cannot verify, that is the essence of bullshido.



    My roommate's emails are in blue. Jones's responses are in red.

    Summary:

    Bob Jones created his own system of Wu Shen Pai Chuan Fa Gung Fu. He is a legitimate 5th Degree black belt in American Kenpo under Larry Tatum. However, the distiuighing factor between Wu Shen Pai Chuan Fa and Kenpo is his claimed 7th Degree Black Belt in a system called Jung Sim Do. I cannot verify that. He cite personal tutelage from a Grandmaster who I cannot find on google, a diplomate in Oriental Medicine from a school I cannot find, training from a Grandmaster, Joo Bang Lee, who when my roomate enquired of Bob Jones, denies ever knowing him, and claims a sword system that I cannot find anywhere on google.

    When asked to verify his credentials by giving nothing more than dates trained and locations of the schools, he got defensive. He was also asked by my roommate for contact information from Doug Vess, the supposed grandmaster of Jung Shin Do. He refused to provide contact info or names of other students to verify his training.
  7. kenpostudent is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/04/2009 5:42pm


     Style: American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Another response from Bob Jones:

    Mr. Alexander,

    The tone you take is VERY DISRESPECTFUL. If you were in fact studying kenjutsu with me, then fine, you are not. If you are in fact being certified by me in a healing arts capacity, then fine, you are not. I am not now nor do I ever represent myself as a Hwa Rang Do instructor. Therefore, the dates, etc. are irrelevant. Currently, my teacher is retired and does not wish to be molested. I respect that, I would ask that you do as well. I have written certification from him and MORE TO THE POINT, I have written credentials in my own system. The part you take from my website, as usual, is misapplied. It is not designed to reference a Grandmaster Instructor. I am who I am and I have nothing to hide. The fact that I do not choose to open my life to every Tom Dick or Harry who might wish for me to do so is no evidence of this. The proof of authenticity is in the teaching. None of the schools you have contacted are relevant. You have not even shared the mat. At this point I am disinterested in having you as a student. I always wonder who folks are shilling for when they come off so disrespectfully. Best of luck. \

    Roommate's response:

    Sigung Jones,


    I schill for no one. I am currently a student of no one. I am looking for a school. You have a commercial business and have made public representations. How come you refuse to verify them? I don't need to speak to Doug Vess, but it would be helpful if you just stated when and where you trained with him. It would also be helpful to state when you trained with Joo Bang Lee. You made the claim. I don't see how requiring basic details is so disrespectful.


    So, because you claim to be a grandmaster you are exempt from scrutiny? I fail to see the logic in that. I can know of several organization where I can claim to be a grandmaster, pay a fee, and get a belt. Does that also exclude me from scrutiny and allow me to open a commercial school and charge for lessons? I doubt you will agree. So, how do you justify your attempt to avoid basic due diligence?


    You claim to be a healing arts instructor and claim certification in that discipline. Would you visit a health care provider without some verification of credentials? At least a doctor or nurse has a board certification, whereby, someone else does the verification for me. You have never had to face such scrutiny, so I believe my questions are warranted.


    I understand if you do not wish to have me as a student. However, you should be able to answer basic questions as to your credentials. If you cannot or will not, you should retract those statements on your website.


    Madison Alexander


    This is Bob Jones's final response:

    Mr. Alexander,

    I have a traditional martial arts kwoon, not as you state, a commercial business. The public representations I have made are true. You have obviously contacted several individuals connected with my Board, and that is my current accountability. The references have, by your own admission, checked out. I do not believe I remember ever seeing you listed as the “martial arts sheriff” and certainly my students and the strength of their art speaks for itself. As I said, you have not even graced the kwoon with your presence and have not shared the mats with ANY of my students and Black Belts. Nor will you. The reason is the way in which you go about things. You are the STUDENT and not the MASTER. It is not your place to run a background investigation on me. If you wish to study elsewhere because I choose not to be treated in this fashion, so be it. In fact, that is exactly what I am urging you to do. Your attitude would not be conducive to learning in my kwoon as you feel that you are the standard of excellence. Since we have agreed that I somehow fail to meet your stringent requirements, then your questions are moot. Nor is it your place to tell me what to put up or take down on my website. Again, best of luck,

    Sigung Jones


    I don't expect another response from him. However, if you google Jung Shin Do, you won't find much... you certainly won't find a Grandmaster Doug Vess. If you google Jung Sim Do, you'll find a number of schools, but still, no Doug Vess. My roommate called the schools listed by links. The instructors have never heard of Doug Vess.

    Grandmaster Joo Bang Lee did not know of a Robert Jones... but Jones claims personal tutelage under Joo Bang Lee.

    Jones refuses to provide any backup for the claims made in his bio.
  8. kenpostudent is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/05/2009 11:15am


     Style: American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This is the only info I can find on a Grandmaster Doug Vess:

    http://boards.ancestry.it/surnames.vess/117/mb.ashx

    This Doug Vess was 10th Degree Black Belt in Shotokan, not a 9th Degree in Jung Shin Do. He also died in 2000, whereas, Jones claims his instructor is "retired" and wishes not to be "molested".

    If you look at the IKKS website for Jones' organization, he lists his board of directors:

    http://www.ikks.net/

    Grandmaster Doug Vess is listed as the head of the World Jung Shin Do Association, which is not listed on any search engine with the exception of the IKKS website. Furthermore, I have contacted former students of Bob Jones who claim that he claimed only a 4th degree in Jung Sim Do back in 2003. However, his bio said he was promoted to 7th degree black belt back in 2003.
  9. 1point2 is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/05/2009 11:33am

    Join us... or die
     Style: 剛 and 柔

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Good work, keep it up.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
  10. kenpostudent is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/05/2009 3:30pm


     Style: American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have received an email from Bruce Thomson, 8th Degree Black Belt in the AKKI and the first kenpo instructor to Bob Jones, indicating that Mr. Thomson was personally dispatched to Flagstaff, Arizona by Ed Parker to retrieve the 2nd Degree Black Belt certificate of Bob Jones. I will post the email, but I am waiting on permission from the sender.

    I have emailed Paul Mills, the president of the AKKI, to determine how Mr. Jones was promoted to 3rd degree black belt in light of this information. It is very possible that the information did not travel quickly enough in those days before the proliferation of email and the internet, as these events happened in the early 90s. While Bruce Thomson is a member of the AKKI today, at that time, I do not believe he was affiliated with Paul Mills. Subequent emails will tell the tale.
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