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  1. kwan_dao is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    257

    Posted On:
    6/05/2009 12:53am


     Style: sambo, stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by War Wheel View Post
    Verharzen means to make resinous.
    Thanks! I am glad to learn that. I knew the term "resin" but did not make the connection to "Harz".

    @Willaume: Linseed oil is a lot different from olive oil. It has a very high "creeping" ability, especially when its hot. The effect can be made even stronger if some turpentine is added. Basically it fills up every little pore and scratch, replacing any air/water around. .

    I have even used it to stop already rusting parts (on a car I could not get around to re-paint immediately) from corroding further.

    As for the harness: A conservator at a nearby weapons museum told me that according to their research at least the field weapons and armor probably all were "brüniert" (mark the familiarity with "brünne"), which my dictionary says means "browned" or "burnished" in english. Ye know, its that process where you actively produce a stable (dark) layer of oxides on the steel, thus preventing the occurence of simple rust.

    He said that the polished armours and weapons were a misconception, which was spread by the fact, that at some point people obviously took all that "ugly dark and greasy" old stuff in the museums and collections and polished them "properly" until they shone. He blamed mostly the time of "romanticism" for that, with all its warped stories about "knights in shining armour". They were scraping off both the original rust protection and a lot of other fine details in the process. :-(

    They happen to have some very fine examples of later period (around 16th/17th century) harnesses at that museum, which survived in good condition. The "browning" is a beautiful blue and the details/carvings were additionally layed out with gold. Me wants to have, but they won't give them away. :-)
  2. Cdnronin is offline

    Ghost of Kawaishi

    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Ottawa
    Posts
    757

    Posted On:
    6/05/2009 4:29pm


     Style: judo, parenting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by nohero View Post
    i've tried olive oil. it turned rancid, and i ended up with a large rust mark on my favorite sword.

    i've always thought that wd-40 is a solvent, but their website claims it's a lubricant and water-displacer. never tried it, never will.
    WD= water displacement. Neat the way they hide that fact in the open.
  3. lklawson is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Dayton, OH
    Posts
    964

    Posted On:
    6/05/2009 9:43pm


     Style: Bowie

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by nohero View Post
    i've always thought that wd-40 is a solvent, but their website claims it's a lubricant and water-displacer. never tried it, never will.
    WD40 is commonly used as a "Penetrating Oil." As such, it kinda, sort acts as a solvent. It will penetrate and lubricate stuck and "frozen" metal-to-metal joints such as frozen nuts and bolts. It is good for cleaning and removing guck and gum from metals and some other parts, particularly industrial label adhesives and the like.

    WD40 is good for driving off moisture from metal parts and many firearms owners use it for that purpose.

    However, WD40 is extremely volatile by nature (i.e., it "evaporates" fast). Thus, once laid down on the metal just won't STAY there for long periods. The metal "dries" quickly even though the WD40 penetrates the pores well. Obviously, once out-gassed of all it's WD40, the metal once again is vulnerable to airborne pollutants and moisture. At least that's the "common knowledge." We'll see if that holds true in the upcoming tests.

    Again, among firearms owners who use WD40 for cleaning and driving off moisture, it is hand dried with a soft cloth and then a protective light oil coat is applied. This is an "old timer" technique and most of the firearms owners now either completely eschew WD40 in favor of a "one stop shop" cleaning and protecting product or follow it up with something like Break-Free CLP. The use of WD40 as a cleaner/moister-remover for firearms is becoming quite rare.

    I will add WD40 to the list of test materials as well, though that list is getting long enough that I might have to do a Part III if I keep this up! :P

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
    Last edited by lklawson; 6/05/2009 9:48pm at .
  4. willaume is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    windsor UK
    Posts
    344

    Posted On:
    6/07/2009 5:30am


     Style: aikido, medieval fencing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kwan_dao View Post
    Thanks! I am glad to learn that. I knew the term "resin" but did not make the connection to "Harz".

    @Willaume: Linseed oil is a lot different from olive oil. It has a very high "creeping" ability, especially when its hot. The effect can be made even stronger if some turpentine is added. Basically it fills up every little pore and scratch, replacing any air/water around. .

    I have even used it to stop already rusting parts (on a car I could not get around to re-paint immediately) from corroding further.

    As for the harness: A conservator at a nearby weapons museum told me that according to their research at least the field weapons and armor probably all were "brüniert" (mark the familiarity with "brünne"), which my dictionary says means "browned" or "burnished" in english. Ye know, its that process where you actively produce a stable (dark) layer of oxides on the steel, thus preventing the occurence of simple rust.

    He said that the polished armours and weapons were a misconception, which was spread by the fact, that at some point people obviously took all that "ugly dark and greasy" old stuff in the museums and collections and polished them "properly" until they shone. He blamed mostly the time of "romanticism" for that, with all its warped stories about "knights in shining armour". They were scraping off both the original rust protection and a lot of other fine details in the process. :-(

    They happen to have some very fine examples of later period (around 16th/17th century) harnesses at that museum, which survived in good condition. The "browning" is a beautiful blue and the details/carvings were additionally layed out with gold. Me wants to have, but they won't give them away. :-)
    yes you are right
    I think there is a painted sallet in a museum in germany.
    armour could be blued (flamme treated), that seems to have been very en vogue in germany,
    browned (layer of controled rust)
    or greened (some sort of acid base vapor treatment)
    a jousting friend is an armourer, he made a Sigismund replica, hardened and tempered as the original, that is used in jousting. if you have 20 k to spare...

    the "romantic" did even much more damage to swords , it is very difficult to get hold of proper medieval sword in the uk or in france, I was told that it is easier in germany and the sword have been less tempred with.
    did you get your hands on some?

    after a while olive oil leave a sort of deposit layer, I think that what Harz refers to

    ps
    Olive oil sort of "burns" leather so you need to treat your leather straps with saddle grease first.
  5. kwan_dao is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    257

    Posted On:
    6/07/2009 1:17pm


     Style: sambo, stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by willaume View Post
    the "romantic" did even much more damage to swords , it is very difficult to get hold of proper medieval sword in the uk or in france, I was told that it is easier in germany and the sword have been less tempred with.
    did you get your hands on some?
    Aye, I heard that generally the weapons got away better then the armours (in germany or austria that is). But outside of the museums medieval weapons in decent state are extremely rare. 16th and 17th century is no problem, but anything older... tough cookies.

    One chance for nice findings are the auctions at the "Dorotheum", the state-owned auctionary house of Austria. They have regular auctions on historic weapons and armour. Take a look here: http://www.dorotheum.com/en/auctions.html
    Last edited by kwan_dao; 6/07/2009 1:33pm at .
  6. willaume is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    windsor UK
    Posts
    344

    Posted On:
    6/10/2009 12:01pm


     Style: aikido, medieval fencing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kwan_dao View Post
    Aye, I heard that generally the weapons got away better then the armours (in germany or austria that is). But outside of the museums medieval weapons in decent state are extremely rare. 16th and 17th century is no problem, but anything older... tough cookies.

    One chance for nice findings are the auctions at the "Dorotheum", the state-owned auctionary house of Austria. They have regular auctions on historic weapons and armour. Take a look here: http://www.dorotheum.com/en/auctions.html
    Yes the only way I have to get my hands on actual sword is via jousting contact.
    I joust with/against the curator of the Wallace and i know the curator of les Invalide via a french jousting group.

    If you can do it do so it is worth it.
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