Posted On:1/21/2004 7:28pm
i always thought the definionts were revresed in BJJ from judo-->strangle= oxygen. choke=blood. in this definition, we learn only chokes in BJJ.
Seeker of Truth
Posted On:1/21/2004 8:48pm
Style: Five Animal Fighting
"As far as the police go, they dont know what theyre doing. My instructer at home choked and strangled people allthe time back in the day and no one died."
I'm sorry but stories like this really don't mean anything, even if your instructor was a police officer and choked out fully resisting suspects that wanted to kill him on a daily basis. It's a matter of statistics. When you have 1000 cops choking 1000 suspects, something is going to go wrong sometime.
I don't care what anyone says, making people pass out is serious business and anytime you wrap your arms around someone's neck they're probably going to think you are out to kill them. If your going to do it you better know what you're doing, even AFTER the 50% hit your cognitive and fine motor skills take thanks to adrenaline.
Maybe we should require police to have a black belt in BJJ, then they can choke all they want, but I personally like my police to spend more time on the streets than in the dojo.
Posted On:1/21/2004 8:50pm
No, no real difference between judo and bjj terms. Judo people just call everything chokes unless they're educated about the matter. Likewise, bjj'ers tend to call everything chokes unless they're educated (triangle choke, rear naked choke, cross choke, etc). All of chokes/strangles I see are actually strangles EXCEPT for the hadaka jime (naked choke, but now what bjj'ers call the rear naked choke) commonly taught in judo, using the forearm. And actually, the ezekiel choke/sode jime is another choke which will get either/or depending on how you do it. Oh oh and that one where you grab a lapel and use your forearm against their neck. The lapel just gives you leverage. Judoka may know this one as katate jime.
But yeah, in general they're all strangles.
You want some birth control? You can smoke a cigarette.
Posted On:1/22/2004 12:33am
In the literal definition choke and strangle do not mean the same as when grapplers use them.
I know of one case of a man getting his trachea severly damaged by a headlock type choke.This was Bruce Shoebottom an AHL hockey player who went after a fan in the stands.I saw a tape of him being held by two cesurity personal while a third headlocked him and it appeared his foream bone was in the trachea.His trachea was crushed but he survived.
People under water can last a long time without air, yes.But not if theu exhale before submerging.Then I think they'd pass out in seconds.I've heard that blood flow to the brain loss causes unconsciousness in 6 seconds and brain measurable brain damage in 45 seconds to 1 minute(no idea if thats true).
However I have seen people choked out on tape where I timed the choke(strangle in our terms) to 3-4 seconds.
I've heard alot about russian studies that indicated that on a very powerful choke (think neck crush) consciousness is actually lost due to interruption of electrical signals running through the spinal cord.When messages don't get to the brain the brain shuts down.I forget the wording, but it cant be too hard to find info on it.
This gels with my experience.When you get the triangle perfectly suck on the ideal neck type and explode with all you got even tough guys tap within one second.Kind of a spasm tap.I think this indicates problems with electrical flow.
The REAL thread killer
Posted On:1/24/2004 4:08pm
Style: World 10-3 Ryu Karate
I've heard the term "blood choke" and "oxygen choke". That should make a muddled matter even worse. LOL.
"The longer I live the more I see that I am never wrong about anything, and that all the pains that I have so humbly taken to verify my notions have only wasted my time."
-- George Bernard Shaw
Posted On:1/24/2004 5:39pm
Originally posted by Osiris
Never heard that before. Also, how do learn BJJ and NEVER cut the oxygen?
BJJ "chokes"almost all of the time cuts off blood, not oxygen. thats why the "chokes" can make someone pass out in 2 seconds if you do it against an submission-ignorant person.
All of chokes/strangles I see are actually strangles EXCEPT for the hadaka jime (naked choke, but now what bjj'ers call the rear naked choke) commonly taught in judo, using the forearm.
i actually don't know any move that cuts off only oxygen. are you sure this is correct? the RNC makes ppl's face blue and makes ppl pass out as well as any other "choke". i put my elbow where their throat is, and flex my arms, so the forarm and bicep each block one blood vessel.
Posted On:1/24/2004 7:02pm
Sorry, that was a typo. I meant NOT what bjj'ers call the rear naked choke. There are two different "hadaka jime"s (naked choke). One is what bjj'ers call the rear naked choke, one is different. Go to the pic that ronin linked at some point in the thread with the forearm in the thread and with a palm to palm grip.
The forearm in the throat one is a choke, the "rear naked choke" where you figure four your arms is a strangle. The rear naked still tends to obstruct the airway, though (depending on what kind of neck the person has). You just pass out from lack of blood to the brain first.
Posted On:1/27/2004 5:59pm
My Sambo coach called hadaka jime "invisible hand" versus the RNC. In my opinion, I don't think the two are very similar, aside from the fact that you're behind your opponent for both. Thge arm position is actually pretty different in the way I learned it, with the hadaka, your pulling back on your arm by grabbing your hand, with the RNC, you push forward on his head and press your elbows towards each other. Tthe only time I think I would use hadake, would be if I couldn't reach far enough in to secure the RNC.
For the original topic, I always thought of strangles as cutting off blood, and chokes as cutting off air.
Posted On:1/28/2004 1:01am
You're correct, they aren't too similar. They are both considered "hadaka jime" in judo (which I believe translated to "naked choke") because the gi isn't used for them.
Posted On:1/28/2004 10:40am
That makes sense, I always wondered where the term "naked choke" came from.
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